Hello from the FAIR Conference

[_wenglund]

Hi Wade...

Thanks for this.

I have heard Wendy speak and read some of her thoughts and I get the impression that for her religion is not about truth but about what helps the individual... am I correct in this?

~dancer~

I don't know her or her postion well enough to say with any certainty, but from what I have read, I would guess that for her religion is about both truth and what helps the individual (as it is with me as well). In other words, it is not an either/or thing.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_huckelberry]

Is there some general principals for interpreting answers to these questions?

I actually am wondering what sort of problems with the church people have that are addressed by these questions. Perhaps it works for people who still believe it is true and are experiencing some sort of friction somewhere.

Myself I hoped religious leaders would help me learn. I found instead doubt that just got deeper and deeper with no way out. If it is true then the universe is insane.

[_Roger Morrison]

Is there some general principals for interpreting answers to these questions?

I actually am wondering what sort of problems with the church people have that are addressed by these questions. Perhaps it works for people who still believe it is true and are experiencing some sort of friction somewhere.

Myself I hoped religious leaders would help me learn. I found instead doubt that just got deeper and deeper with no way out. If it is true then the universe is insane.

Hi Huck, i'm with you here. The questions seemed irrelevant generally, but possibly served Wendy's purpose more than anyones???

Church-attendence is a culturtal practice dating back to Old Testament times in the Judaic then Christian tradition to the present. Why one attended can be speculated upon with a fair degree of hind-sight accuracy, including to see and be seen. With Church influencing State, that Sabbath was the Lord's Day--not "man's"--what else was there to do? And, if you didn't--not being seen--reputation could be sullied. Still a sentiment in some Cultish Churches.

Then the fear-factor of spending eternity in Hell--still preached in Cultish Christianism--was/is a big stick influence. Countered by the big carrot of spending it in Heaven; whether as an Angel or as a "God"/"Goddess", it is a vision that many continue to embrace.

Nor can the guilt factor be ignored. Penance brought many to their knees and harnessed them to a life, or time, of retribution paying monetarially and psychically for past sins. Remaining a powerful force in Cultish Fundie congregations still. Some such becoming zealots of their sects.

Of course there is the teaching/learning element. That unfortunately reinforced the negatives as much as what positives might have remained after man got through screening "God's" word to serve Mammon... ;-)

Is this to say churches have never served a worthwhile purpose? NO, for they obviously have!

However, like it or not, churches are under an enlightened scrutiny as never before. As religion's sins of ommission & commission are acknowledged, and their efforts and energies are focussed on the "Two New Commandments", that have nothing to do with sectarianism, being in spirit more secular and humane than mystical & other-worldly, then we will see the justice and healing that Jesus taught 2,000 years ago. As i see things... Warm regards, Roger

[_Hoops]

Is there some general principals for interpreting answers to these questions?

I actually am wondering what sort of problems with the church people have that are addressed by these questions. Perhaps it works for people who still believe it is true and are experiencing some sort of friction somewhere.

Myself I hoped religious leaders would help me learn. I found instead doubt that just got deeper and deeper with no way out. If it is true then the universe is insane.

[b]Hi
Then the fear-factor of spending eternity in Hell--still preached in Cultish Christianism--was/is a big stick influence. Countered by the big carrot of spending it in Heaven; whether as an Angel or as a "God"/"Goddess", it is a vision that many continue to embrace.

Nor can the guilt factor be ignored. Penance brought many to their knees and harnessed them to a life, or time, of retribution paying monetarially and psychically for past sins. Remaining a powerful force in Cultish Fundie congregations still. Some such becoming zealots of their sects.

Of course there is the teaching/learning element. That unfortunately reinforced the negatives as much as what positives might have remained after man got through screening "God's" word to serve Mammon... ;-)

Is this to say churches have never served a worthwhile purpose? NO, for they obviously have!

However, like it or not, churches are under an enlightened scrutiny as never before. As religion's sins of ommission & commission are acknowledged, and their efforts and energies are focussed on the "Two New Commandments", that have nothing to do with sectarianism, being in spirit more secular and humane than mystical & other-worldly, then we will see the justice and healing that Jesus taught 2,000 years ago. As I see things... Warm regards, Roger

Your gross exaggeration, while impressive within the written word, are hardly evidence of much of reality. While what you say here, can be attributed to individual sects (you would know them better than I), I know of no Christian (fundie) church that proclaims what you assert.

Many others and I welcome the scrutiny. Please, scrutinize away. You will find many of our members as regular decent folk, trying to better our world in what ever way we can, supporting our brothers and sisters, and living lives that honor our self imposed (or Christ imposed - depending on your world view) guidelines. And then, of course, we fail and try to do this all over again. Because you find it damaging in some way, does not make it so.

[_huckelberry]

This thread caught me grumpy yesterday. I thought I would reread the questions in the morning to see if I could see them with a positive dimension in the morning.

I have heard a few times the idea that people might distrust God because their human parents had qualities that were less than ideal. After all everybodies parents lack something somewhere I suspect. God is proposed to be that ideal that our human parents might point to at their best. That may be provided God is such. Is he on the other hand an uninvolved beaurocrat who care more whether people did the correct rituals and has no time for indivual experience. That picture would not fit my parents but who knows maybe my parents are not a good indicator?

I guess I would like to invite Wade to provide some example of how these questions could help somebody understanding something. I still find them a frustrating dead end. Yesterday I allowed perhaps they help somebody. I find myself repeating a view of them as not helpful. I will repeat attempting a bit more clarity.

I am to understand that due to my parents shortcomings,whatever they might be, I am unable to judge clearly what is true and what is good? Perhaps I should understand that I am dysfuntional and should thus trust what I am told because my own perception is distorted due to my parents failings?

Personally I prefer my real parents with their real shortcomings.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Huck...

I'm with you on this.

I have heard a few times the idea that people might distrust God because their human parents had qualities that were less than ideal. After all everybodies parents lack something somewhere I suspect. God is proposed to be that ideal that our human parents might point to at their best. That may be provided God is such. Is he on the other hand an uninvolved beaurocrat who care more whether people did the correct rituals and has no time for indivual experience. That picture would not fit my parents but who knows maybe my parents are not a good indicator?

When I was still trying to believe, I remember thinking how different my father is from the LDS God... my father is this fabulous, amazing, incredible man who has more integrity than anyone I know. He was a fabulous husband and would never in a billion years take on other women, nor would he ever treat people differently based on skin color. There is not a mean bone in his body. Then... I look at the God of Mormonism, and just can't see how this "father" is a great man/being.

It just seems weird, ya know?

More generally however, I too feel as you regarding the "questions."

:-)

~dancer~

[_huckelberry]

Dancer, perhaps you and I suffer from parents too decent. If they had been rigidly authoriitarian then we would be able to understand "god as he really is"

nuts.

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi Hoop, you quoted me then followed up. Below is both from your post:

Then the fear-factor of spending eternity in Hell--still preached in Cultish Christianism--was/is a big stick influence. Countered by the big carrot of spending it in Heaven; whether as an Angel or as a "God"/"Goddess", it is a vision that many continue to embrace.

Nor can the guilt factor be ignored. Penance brought many to their knees and harnessed them to a life, or time, of retribution paying monetarially and psychically for past sins. Remaining a powerful force in Cultish Fundie congregations still. Some such becoming zealots of their sects.

Of course there is the teaching/learning element. That unfortunately reinforced the negatives as much as what positives might have remained after man got through screening "God's" word to serve Mammon... ;-)

Is this to say churches have never served a worthwhile purpose? NO, for they obviously have!

However, like it or not, churches are under an enlightened scrutiny as never before. As religion's sins of ommission & commission are acknowledged, and their efforts and energies are focussed on the "Two New Commandments", that have nothing to do with sectarianism, being in spirit more secular and humane than mystical & other-worldly, then we will see the justice and healing that Jesus taught 2,000 years ago. As I see things... Warm regards, Roger


Your gross exaggeration, while impressive within the written word, are hardly evidence of much of reality. While what you say here, can be attributed to individual sects (you would know them better than I), I know of no Christian (fundie) church that proclaims what you assert.

Many others and I welcome the scrutiny. Please, scrutinize away. Then the fear-factor of spending eternity in Hell--still preached in Cultish Christianism--was/is a big stick influence. Countered by the big carrot of spending it in Heaven; whether as an Angel or as a "God"/"Goddess", it is a vision that many continue to embrace.

Nor can the guilt factor be ignored. Penance brought many to their knees and harnessed them to a life, or time, of retribution paying monetarially and psychically for past sins. Remaining a powerful force in Cultish Fundie congregations still. Some such becoming zealots of their sects.

Of course there is the teaching/learning element. That unfortunately reinforced the negatives as much as what positives might have remained after man got through screening "God's" word to serve Mammon... ;-)

Is this to say churches have never served a worthwhile purpose? NO, for they obviously have!

However, like it or not, churches are under an enlightened scrutiny as never before. As religion's sins of ommission & commission are acknowledged, and their efforts and energies are focussed on the "Two New Commandments", that have nothing to do with sectarianism, being in spirit more secular and humane than mystical & other-worldly, then we will see the justice and healing that Jesus taught 2,000 years ago. As I see things... Warm regards, Roger


Your gross exaggeration, while impressive within the written word, are hardly evidence of much of reality. While what you say here, can be attributed to individual sects (you would know them better than I), I know of no Christian (fundie) church that proclaims what you assert.

Many others and I welcome the scrutiny. Please, scrutinize away. You will find many of our members as regular decent folk, trying to better our world in what ever way we can, supporting our brothers and sisters, and living lives that honor our self imposed (or Christ imposed - depending on your world view) guidelines. And then, of course, we fail and try to do this all over again. Because you find it damaging in some way, does not make it so.

Then the fear-factor of spending eternity in Hell--still preached in Cultish Christianism--was/is a big stick influence. Countered by the big carrot of spending it in Heaven; whether as an Angel or as a "God"/"Goddess", it is a vision that many continue to embrace.

Nor can the guilt factor be ignored. Penance brought many to their knees and harnessed them to a life, or time, of retribution paying monetarially and psychically for past sins. Remaining a powerful force in Cultish Fundie congregations still. Some such becoming zealots of their sects.

Of course there is the teaching/learning element. That unfortunately reinforced the negatives as much as what positives might have remained after man got through screening "God's" word to serve Mammon... ;-)

Is this to say churches have never served a worthwhile purpose? NO, for they obviously have!

However, like it or not, churches are under an enlightened scrutiny as never before. As religion's sins of ommission & commission are acknowledged, and their efforts and energies are focussed on the "Two New Commandments", that have nothing to do with sectarianism, being in spirit more secular and humane than mystical & other-worldly, then we will see the justice and healing that Jesus taught 2,000 years ago. As I see things... Warm regards, Roger


Your gross exaggeration, while impressive within the written word, are hardly evidence of much of reality. While what you say here, can be attributed to individual sects (you would know them better than I), I know of no Christian (fundie) church that proclaims what you assert.

Many others and I welcome the scrutiny. Please, scrutinize away. You will find many of our members as regular decent folk, trying to better our world in what ever way we can, supporting our brothers and sisters, and living lives that honor our self imposed (or Christ imposed - depending on your world view) guidelines. And then, of course, we fail and try to do this all over again. Because you find it damaging in some way, does not make it so.



Our referrence frames are obviously different. What might seem "gross exageration(s)" to you are "impressive" because they are factual personal experiences over many decades of sectarian evolution coupled to reams of Christian historical assertions. Could be you have not been as widely exposed as me???

You will find many of our members as regular decent folk, trying to better our world in what ever way we can, supporting our brothers and sisters, and living lives that honor our self imposed (or Christ imposed - depending on your world view) guidelines. And then, of course, we fail and try to do this all over again. Because you find it damaging in some way, does not make it so.

To which i paste from above:

Is this to say churches have never served a worthwhile purpose? NO, for they obviously have!

I think that should assure you i'm in complete agreement with you re: "...decent folks..." I, and most folks i know are exactly that. As i expect You are too...

I am not critical of individual church members, in any sect, if they are honest , "decent folks'. What i am suggesting is that institutionalized Christianism, in all (OK, most :-) sects, has been tardy & tacky for centuries in their interpretation of the humanitarian teachings of Jesus. I'm sure you are as well aware as am i, there have been some rather major changes in perspectives and attitudes in most sects over the past 75 years alone. Not to mention witch-hunts & burnings of the 1700-1800s...

I'm glad you welcome the scrutiny. It is that which will bring about the revisions necessary to redeem Christianity and restore its very basic "Golden Rule" as ALL churches un-sect them selves in honest ecumenical communion and teaching no-more-nor-less than the "Two New Commandments."

This transition should be rejoiced by "decent folks". It is the "Institutions" that deny this need that will react negatively. As did the Sanhedrin some 2,000+/_ years ago...

TD & Huck, yer right, & of course, i'm with ya... Old Testament's "God" guy has to have been the original dysfunctinal and abusive grand-parent... Warm regards, Roger

[_Hoops]

Hi Hoop, you quoted me then followed up. Below is both from your post:

Then the fear-factor of spending eternity in Hell--still preached in Cultish Christianism--was/is a big stick influence. Countered by the big carrot of spending it in Heaven; whether as an Angel or as a "God"/"Goddess", it is a vision that many continue to embrace.

Nor can the guilt factor be ignored. Penance brought many to their knees and harnessed them to a life, or time, of retribution paying monetarially and psychically for past sins. Remaining a powerful force in Cultish Fundie congregations still. Some such becoming zealots of their sects.

Of course there is the teaching/learning element. That unfortunately reinforced the negatives as much as what positives might have remained after man got through screening "God's" word to serve Mammon... ;-)

Is this to say churches have never served a worthwhile purpose? NO, for they obviously have!

However, like it or not, churches are under an enlightened scrutiny as never before. As religion's sins of ommission & commission are acknowledged, and their efforts and energies are focussed on the "Two New Commandments", that have nothing to do with sectarianism, being in spirit more secular and humane than mystical & other-worldly, then we will see the justice and healing that Jesus taught 2,000 years ago. As I see things... Warm regards, Roger


Your gross exaggeration, while impressive within the written word, are hardly evidence of much of reality. While what you say here, can be attributed to individual sects (you would know them better than I), I know of no Christian (fundie) church that proclaims what you assert.

Many others and I welcome the scrutiny. Please, scrutinize away. Then the fear-factor of spending eternity in Hell--still preached in Cultish Christianism--was/is a big stick influence. Countered by the big carrot of spending it in Heaven; whether as an Angel or as a "God"/"Goddess", it is a vision that many continue to embrace.

Nor can the guilt factor be ignored. Penance brought many to their knees and harnessed them to a life, or time, of retribution paying monetarially and psychically for past sins. Remaining a powerful force in Cultish Fundie congregations still. Some such becoming zealots of their sects.

Of course there is the teaching/learning element. That unfortunately reinforced the negatives as much as what positives might have remained after man got through screening "God's" word to serve Mammon... ;-)

Is this to say churches have never served a worthwhile purpose? NO, for they obviously have!

However, like it or not, churches are under an enlightened scrutiny as never before. As religion's sins of ommission & commission are acknowledged, and their efforts and energies are focussed on the "Two New Commandments", that have nothing to do with sectarianism, being in spirit more secular and humane than mystical & other-worldly, then we will see the justice and healing that Jesus taught 2,000 years ago. As I see things... Warm regards, Roger


Your gross exaggeration, while impressive within the written word, are hardly evidence of much of reality. While what you say here, can be attributed to individual sects (you would know them better than I), I know of no Christian (fundie) church that proclaims what you assert.

Many others and I welcome the scrutiny. Please, scrutinize away. You will find many of our members as regular decent folk, trying to better our world in what ever way we can, supporting our brothers and sisters, and living lives that honor our self imposed (or Christ imposed - depending on your world view) guidelines. And then, of course, we fail and try to do this all over again. Because you find it damaging in some way, does not make it so.

Then the fear-factor of spending eternity in Hell--still preached in Cultish Christianism--was/is a big stick influence. Countered by the big carrot of spending it in Heaven; whether as an Angel or as a "God"/"Goddess", it is a vision that many continue to embrace.

Nor can the guilt factor be ignored. Penance brought many to their knees and harnessed them to a life, or time, of retribution paying monetarially and psychically for past sins. Remaining a powerful force in Cultish Fundie congregations still. Some such becoming zealots of their sects.

Of course there is the teaching/learning element. That unfortunately reinforced the negatives as much as what positives might have remained after man got through screening "God's" word to serve Mammon... ;-)

Is this to say churches have never served a worthwhile purpose? NO, for they obviously have!

However, like it or not, churches are under an enlightened scrutiny as never before. As religion's sins of ommission & commission are acknowledged, and their efforts and energies are focussed on the "Two New Commandments", that have nothing to do with sectarianism, being in spirit more secular and humane than mystical & other-worldly, then we will see the justice and healing that Jesus taught 2,000 years ago. As I see things... Warm regards, Roger


Your gross exaggeration, while impressive within the written word, are hardly evidence of much of reality. While what you say here, can be attributed to individual sects (you would know them better than I), I know of no Christian (fundie) church that proclaims what you assert.

Many others and I welcome the scrutiny. Please, scrutinize away. You will find many of our members as regular decent folk, trying to better our world in what ever way we can, supporting our brothers and sisters, and living lives that honor our self imposed (or Christ imposed - depending on your world view) guidelines. And then, of course, we fail and try to do this all over again. Because you find it damaging in some way, does not make it so.



Our referrence frames are obviously different. What might seem "gross exageration(s)" to you are "impressive" because they are factual personal experiences over many decades of sectarian evolution coupled to reams of Christian historical assertions. Could be you have not been as widely exposed as me???

You will find many of our members as regular decent folk, trying to better our world in what ever way we can, supporting our brothers and sisters, and living lives that honor our self imposed (or Christ imposed - depending on your world view) guidelines. And then, of course, we fail and try to do this all over again. Because you find it damaging in some way, does not make it so.

To which I paste from above:

Is this to say churches have never served a worthwhile purpose? NO, for they obviously have!

I think that should assure you I'm in complete agreement with you re: "...decent folks..." I, and most folks I know are exactly that. As I expect You are too...

I am not critical of individual church members, in any sect, if they are honest , "decent folks'. What I am suggesting is that institutionalized Christianism, in all (OK, most :-) sects, has been tardy & tacky for centuries in their interpretation of the humanitarian teachings of Jesus. I'm sure you are as well aware as am I, there have been some rather major changes in perspectives and attitudes in most sects over the past 75 years alone. Not to mention witch-hunts & burnings of the 1700-1800s...

I'm glad you welcome the scrutiny. It is that which will bring about the revisions necessary to redeem Christianity and restore its very basic "Golden Rule" as ALL churches un-sect them selves in honest ecumenical communion and teaching no-more-nor-less than the "Two New Commandments."

This transition should be rejoiced by "decent folks". It is the "Institutions" that deny this need that will react negatively. As did the Sanhedrin some 2,000+/_ years ago...

TD & Huck, yer right, & of course, I'm with ya... Old Testament's "God" guy has to have been the original dysfunctinal and abusive grand-parent... Warm regards, Roger

I think we may agree, and this surprised me, considering your inititial post.

I think you would agree that the very nature of organized religion invites the abuses that you have described. It is for this reason, and others, that I have chosen the denomination I have. I deplore the idea of any organization puttiing a layer between me and God, and that facet of an organized expression of faith can be dangerous. Note: I wrote "can be". In addition, it is for this reason, among others, that I welcome scrutiny of our faith. However, if you or anyone is expecting a perfect, or even outstanding, expression of faith, you will be disappointed. We are, quite simply, flawed fallible people trying to voluntarily organize ourselves to do some good.

If I may, could we agree that what you may regard or understand as the "golden rule" or, even, most important in expressing faith, may be different than what I think? Here is where I welcome the scrutiny. If we are blowing it terribly, please, tell me. But if I contend for our expression that does not necessarily mean that I am some kind of intellectual dolt who just can't listen to reason.

[_Roger Morrison]

Good Monday Hoop, you said, to which i will inject in bold:

I think we may agree, and this surprised me, considering your inititial post. RM: I'm glad...

I think you would agree that the very nature of organized religion invites the abuses that you have described. RM: Yes, as they are constructed after a top-down political aristocratic model that is difficult to accept as infallible... It is for this reason, and others, that I have chosen the denomination I have. RM: If not too personal, which one is that? I deplore the idea of any organization puttiing a layer between me and God, and that facet of an organized expression of faith can be dangerous. RM: Yes, more for some than for others... Note: I wrote "can be". In addition, it is for this reason, among others, that I welcome scrutiny of our faith. RM: Do you mean Christianity as a whole, or denominations in particular? However, if you or anyone is expecting a perfect, or even outstanding, expression of faith, RM: I'm not sure how to interpret your use of the word, "faith"? Do you mean a person's "faith" or the "faith" to which one belongs? i.e. Catholicism, LDSism, etc... you will be disappointed. RM: I can never be disappointed in an individual. However, i do have high expectations of Institutions & their Officers that present themselves as experts in their fields. Accountability, you know what i mean? We are, quite simply, flawed fallible people trying to voluntarily organize ourselves to do some good. RM: So we all are, my friend... AND by our very nature we are creative, initiative taking problem solvers...when allowed to be, as "God" would have, and not allowed to be by Institutions that fear their demise... Generally speaking...

If I may, could we agree that what you may regard or understand as the "golden rule" or, even, most important in expressing faith, may be different than what I think? RM: Of course... Here is where I welcome the scrutiny. If we are blowing it terribly, please, tell me. But if I contend for our expression that does not necessarily mean that I am some kind of intellectual dolt who just can't listen to reason. RM: That never occured to me...

I "think" we are "blowing it" less today than in the past. With 1,000 +/- denominations/sects it is obvious there is little agreement in the nits-&-pics that generally make up the discussions on sites like this. HOWEVER, amidst the N&Ps there are thoughtful folks who represent a growing number of thinkers who have no difficulty seperating fiction from fact and engaging in human issues, as you suggested, that far outweigh religious trivia.

It is in such spiritually empathetic environments that "Churches"--not "Religion"--can play the roles Jesus, humanity's advocate, intended HIS followers to take. Slow going, with a lot of resistance from compromised-christianism. But folks like You seem to be seeing it... Warm regards, Roger