Brethren and Discernment?

[_barrelomonkeys]

I ran across a post a few days ago about brethren having a greater power of discernment than others.

Is this something that LDS believe? In your opinion where does this belief come from?

If so, and you're LDS, why do you believe you would have any greater ability to make meaning of what is mysterious than those outside the Church?

[_beastie]

When LDS are "called" to do jobs in the church, they are "ordained" to the calling. A priesthood holder lays his hands on your head and "sets you apart" for the calling and prays that God will bless you with the traits you need in order to be able to perform the calling the way God wants you to. Callings that entail influence and a certain amount of control over other people normally require "the spirit of discernment" as one of those traits you need to do the job well. For example, a bishop or a stake president needs "the spirit of discernment" to help him decide which members should do which jobs, and which members are worthy for callings or temple recommends, and which are not. It's also supposed to help them in counseling troubled members, which they often do as well.

So the prophet and the GAs would have even MORE "spirit of discernment" because they're not just in charge of one ward, but the entire world (or parts of it).

That's normally what LDS are referring to by "spirit of discernment". Of course, past leaders have declared that prophets have such super-duper spirit of discernment, they have the right to make proclamations about any old subject they want, too. Some chapel Mormons still adhere to that idea.

[_ajax18]

I think people get it from their patriarchal blessings sometimes. That's why my mom believes she has it. I certainly didn't have this power. People have lied to me and I brought into it with no suspicion, like when I was doing baptismal interviews for the LDS church. So some could call me gullible, but then if I hadn't believed them they could have called faithless and suspicious. So you can't really always please people on that one.

I've read stories of a GA saying in the temple that he had been shown by revelation that there were adulterers present and if they didn't leave he would mention their names. It was in the old seminary home study manual when they were talking about the power of discernment. I've even read where leaders have gotten inside intelligence or information and then tried to use it as a way of proclaiming that they had the spirit of discernment. Kevin Graham had a very good example he posted on this board called, "Karate Graham," but seeing it was a while back I can't find it. I wish I could, perhaps Kevin would care to retell it.

Of course this tactic is very common at the MTC. They want the elders to think that if they're lying, the interviewere will always know by the spirit of discernment. Then the elders start doing their own interviews and realize that 99.99999% of the time God reveals nothing.

While I personally believe that God is always watching and knows the truth behind every lie, I see no evidence to indicate that he reaveals this to man very often at all. It just makes me want to lash out and thrash the older authoritarian men who use this "discernment" idea as a means to scare and intimidate people. Or they even go so far as to criticize young missionaries doing interviews for not having the spirit of discernment when someone is lying to them. What a bunch of bunk!

Needless to say, I'm very skeptical of the whole idea of the "spirit of discernment." While I don't negate that it could exist, I'd beware of authoritarian deceivers in the Church misusing it.

[_barrelomonkeys]

When LDS are "called" to do jobs in the church, they are "ordained" to the calling. A priesthood holder lays his hands on your head and "sets you apart" for the calling and prays that God will bless you with the traits you need in order to be able to perform the calling the way God wants you to. Callings that entail influence and a certain amount of control over other people normally require "the spirit of discernment" as one of those traits you need to do the job well. For example, a bishop or a stake president needs "the spirit of discernment" to help him decide which members should do which jobs, and which members are worthy for callings or temple recommends, and which are not. It's also supposed to help them in counseling troubled members, which they often do as well.

Okay, that's what I get for assuming. It didn't even occur to me that this discernment would be used to examine character, I was thinking along the lines of spiritual implications.

So the prophet and the GAs would have even MORE "spirit of discernment" because they're not just in charge of one ward, but the entire world (or parts of it).

That's normally what LDS are referring to by "spirit of discernment". Of course, past leaders have declared that prophets have such super-duper spirit of discernment, they have the right to make proclamations about any old subject they want, too. Some chapel Mormons still adhere to that idea.

Well where do they get this "spirit of discernment"? The higher their duties, or roles, in the church the more of the spirit they have?

[_barrelomonkeys]

I think people get it from their patriarchal blessings sometimes. That's why my mom believes she has it. I certainly didn't. People have lied to me and I brought into it with no suspicion, like when I was doing baptismal interviews for the LDS church. So some could call me gullible, but then if I hadn't believed them they could have called faithless and suspicious. So you can't really always please people on that one.

So you receive the spirit when you receive the blessing?

I've read stories of GAs saying in the temple that they had been shown by revelation that there were adulterers present and if they didn't leave he would mention their names.

Wow!

It was in the old seminary home study manua when they were talking about the power of discernmentl. Nowadays I can't help but think they're just trying to scare and intimidate people. Unless they have some inside information I question whether God has ever told them anything at all. If there is a God, I've seen him choose too many times to not reveal that unworthy people were entering the temple. If God does tell them specific information like this, I suggest He does it very rarely. If you would have just listened to the manual, you probably would have went into the temple thinking, "Yikes, if I'm unworthy the leaders are going to know through supernatural means and I'm going to have to sit in the van while the others finish the session." It just doesn't happen that way very often and I can't help but think that the leaders really know a lot less than they're letting on to.

Is this manual on line?

[_beastie]

Okay, that's what I get for assuming. It didn't even occur to me that this discernment would be used to examine character, I was thinking along the lines of spiritual implications.

As far as spiritual implications, only the prophet has the type of discernment that would sanction pronouncements about doctrine or beliefs. The rest has to do with examining character, or figuring out problems.

Well where do they get this "spirit of discernment"? The higher their duties, or roles, in the church the more of the spirit they have?

I'm sure most LDS believe the prophet has more spirit of discernment than anyone else, followed by apostles, then other GAs, and then the local level callings, so yes, there is a type of hierarchy. But it is also based on worthiness, so if an apostle is, for example, a secret adulterer, he wouldn't have the spirit of discernment (although the prophet should and get rid of him).

LDS believe that God communicates with human beings via two mechanisms - one is the Light of Christ, which all human beings can access. Even nonbelievers could feasibly be influenced by the Light of Christ, although we wouldn't realize its origins. LDS believe moral conscious comes about as a result of the influence of the Light of Christ.

The more powerful communicator is the Holy Ghost, and actual third member of the godhead, the only one without a body. (although apparently he'll get a body during the millennium - that may be controversial) People who are trying to do God's will can temporarily access the Holy Ghost, but only members who have been given the "gift of the Holy Ghost" immediately after baptism can have constant access to that influence. Here's how it works, more or less, with some variables: a worthy member ponders and prays about a certain topic (for example, if he's a bishop, who to "call" to do a job at church). He has a name in mind and asks God if this is his will. If he feels good about it after praying, that is the Holy Ghost telling him that is a good choice. If he feels a 'stupor of mind' (this is not well defined), or feels badly about it, it's the Holy Ghost telling him it is a bad choice.

All members can have the spirit of discernment in terms of managing their own lives. This was why, as a believer, I felt good about marrying a man I'd known literally three months on our wedding day. We were engaged on our third date. I felt good about it because I had fasted and prayed and asked God if I should marry this man. I had a good feeling when praying, so that was a "yes" answer. I married him, and boy was it a mistake (except for my three great kids who have a lot of baggage thanks to their dad).

[_Mister Scratch]

1. Yes, most TBMs believe that the Brethren have a greater power of discernment.
2. No, there is no evidence indicating that the Brethren actually do.

[_beastie]

Book of Mormon - go to lds.org, then click the library, then do a search for "spirit of discernment". You'll find some lessons and talks there.

[_Blixa]

1. Yes, most TBMs believe that the Brethren have a greater power of discernment.
2. No, there is no evidence indicating that the Brethren actually do.

heh.

[_The Nehor]

The Power of Discernment is held by right by certain callings. Other receive it as a gift. I do not believe I have it yet.

The power explicitly granted is the right to judge whether spiritual experiences are of God or not. Sometimes it can be used detect lies and discern character but this is NOT a guarantee. Bishops and Stake Presidents and Apostles and Prophets have all been deceived and will continue to do so. In the D&C Joseph Smith was told to not share certain things. The Lord qualified it by saying he wasn't doing this so he couldn't tell it to the righteous but then stated clearly that he couldn't always tell the righteous from the wicked so he was to keep his peace.

I have witnessed leaders using discernment to reveal people hiding sin including myself. There was also a fashionable little subculture within my Mission that built itself up around a book written by a member of the Church. Many Missionaries were applying a lot of extracurricular worship methods and unethical missionary practices based on it. The Mission President stood up and rebuked it and declared that certain teachings in the book and the methods used were not of God and should be discontinued. "He spoke not as the Rabbis but as one having authority." :)