so, what happened today in Sacrament meeting?

[_Bond...James Bond]

I always thought the "God answers all prayers" thing I was told in my Protestant upbringing to be fairly ridiculous from age 7 or so.....honestly what would God care about someone finding their car keys? He's God (for Godssakes) I always figured he had bigger fish to fry than helping people find stamps or their keys or the remote.

[_wenglund]

Is the right question being asked?

Seems as though the question being asked is why God doesn't intervene in one situation but does in another. The complete question should be, at least in my opinion, "When prayers are answered, what can I attribute that to... and when prayers aren't answered, what can I attribute that to? ...

Regards, MG

While that is an excellent way of exploring the issue, I personally prefer this question: "What is the best way of viewing life's challenges and disparities (like with the key finding vs. starvation in Africa comparison) so as to affect improvement in self and others?"

To me, this question tends to move our thought processes away from too often counterproductive philosophical wranglings, and towards finding constructive solutions for life's challenges and disparities.

Might the belief that God helped a person to find their keys, give hope to some that God may assist them in correcting more serious conditions (like starvation in Africa), thus giving them cause to take action to that end? I happen to think so.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Arnold Friend]

Apparently, some parents see their mission is to teach their children to be cynical, distrusting, and unbelieving, while other parents see their mission is to teach their child to be just the opposite (loving, trusting, and believing).

Some parents believe that mentally conditioning a child to "know" something that they can't possibly really know, is really cute. Let's get our children to follow in our own footsteps. If we start while they're young, we have the best chance of getting them for life! Give me a break. My daughter isn't cynical or distrusting at all, however she's also growing up with a rational faculty and the ability to exercise critical thinking and sound judgment. If rational thought, critical thinking, and sound judgment are the opposites of kids raised with the mental conditioning of kids of belief in something they know really nothing about, then I'm all for it.

Fortunately for some of us, through a broader application of rational thought, critical thinking skills, and sound judgement, and because our epistemics aren't restricted narrow-mindedly to things that are "knowable", but, by way of inductive reasoning, include matters of faith, probabilities, uncertainty, and relative "unknowns", we don't view the available options in such overly simplistic and binary terms like you just described. To each their own.

I'm with you Mr. Englund. I know that I really enjoy thinking about things that I don't know. The understanding I receive from not knowing is really something else.

[_barrelomonkeys]

I understand that the problem of evil is a big thing for many people. Indeed that point was driven home to me on my mission in an interesting way. I could tell the story if you're interested

Well I would like to hear the story.

I'm in a rush, so I hope this does it justice especially considering that I'm more of an engineer than storyteller.

In what was my most difficult city I was tracting as usual. This city was really depressing to me (although looking back it was probably my attitude more than anything). People rejected the message based on what their pastor said or for what I thought were completely silly reasons such as the fact that we used bikes and tracted on Sunday (many Calvinists in the area). One Calvinist group even had recently given a sermon about Mormons including that Jesus and Satan are brothers and we got to talk to that pastor and see their newletter about us too.

Well, on one strange day of tracting it seemed that we were getting a lot of people who dismissed us on the basis of the problem of evil. In particular many spoke of the atrocities religious people did to themselves even in Christian Ireland. Worse was the fact that one of the ladies we were speaking to had connections to a former member and also current members of that city's LDS branch. She was mostly polite though. Still, I was convinced that the PoE thing was more of a silly excuse for people who simply didn't want to believe in God.

The evening came and I went out for tracting again. This time I ran into someone from the Middle East who let us in on the basis that we were different from other religions. It was hard for me to follow his precise words and I don't recall whether he was speaking to me in English or in my mission's tongue, but his message was clear. He had seen his family suffer greatly. He, who grew up a devout Muslim, had come to question the existence of God over it. It really struck me that this was indeed the case for him and not due to laziness on his part. There really wasn't much we could offer, but he agreed to take our Book of Mormon and look at it but that he would contact us if he had more interest but currently that was not the case and that returning uninvited would not be appreciated.

Abestosman, thanks for your story. I imagine it is very difficult being a missionary.

When I think of the question of suffering and God I really want to know how those with faith still hold fast to their faith. What I find so interesting is not the people that see so much suffering and lose faith in God but those that still believe in God despite the suffering.

[_wenglund]

Apparently, some parents see their mission is to teach their children to be cynical, distrusting, and unbelieving, while other parents see their mission is to teach their child to be just the opposite (loving, trusting, and believing).

Some parents believe that mentally conditioning a child to "know" something that they can't possibly really know, is really cute. Let's get our children to follow in our own footsteps. If we start while they're young, we have the best chance of getting them for life! Give me a break. My daughter isn't cynical or distrusting at all, however she's also growing up with a rational faculty and the ability to exercise critical thinking and sound judgment. If rational thought, critical thinking, and sound judgment are the opposites of kids raised with the mental conditioning of kids of belief in something they know really nothing about, then I'm all for it.

Fortunately for some of us, through a broader application of rational thought, critical thinking skills, and sound judgement, and because our epistemics aren't restricted narrow-mindedly to things that are "knowable", but, by way of inductive reasoning, include matters of faith, probabilities, uncertainty, and relative "unknowns", we don't view the available options in such overly simplistic and binary terms like you just described. To each their own.

I'm with you Mr. Englund. I know that I really enjoy thinking about things that I don't know. The understanding I receive from not knowing is really something else.

I am confident that you aren't "with me". The "understanding" (or mis-understanding as the case may be) that you recieved from not really "knowing" what I said, is self-evident, and "really something else". But, if it brought you joy, then I am fine with that. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_mocnarf]

Nehor:
The teachings on the Premortal world being taught DO NOT teach that.

Even Joseph Smith taught it. I posted a few statements on the pre existence in a response to Liz that you should read.

Remember, the LDS only believe in the teachings of dead prophets in as much as those teachings are consistant with the teaching of the current living phophet. In otherwords, all teaching in the church are (or can be) subject to change.

In 1870, if you wanted to make to the Celestial Kingdom, you better have more than one wife. Today, one wife is sufficient.

[_Arnold Friend]

I'm with you Mr. Englund. I know that I really enjoy thinking about things that I don't know. The understanding I receive from not knowing is really something else.

I am confident that you aren't "with me". The "understanding" (or mis-understanding as the case may be) that you recieved from not really "knowing" what I said, is self-evident, and "really something else". But, if it brought you joy, then I am fine with that. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I think I understood what I thought, and am not really sure why you think that I wouldn't know what I know. Do you somehow know what I think, Mr. Englund? Or did it bring you joy to think that you knew what I know?

[_KimberlyAnn]

I think I understood what I thought, and am not really sure why you think that I wouldn't know what I know. Do you somehow know what I think, Mr. Englund? Or did it bring you joy to think that you knew what I know?

LOL!

Welcome to the board, Mr. Friend!

Kimberly Ann

[_wenglund]

I'm with you Mr. Englund. I know that I really enjoy thinking about things that I don't know. The understanding I receive from not knowing is really something else.

I am confident that you aren't "with me". The "understanding" (or mis-understanding as the case may be) that you recieved from not really "knowing" what I said, is self-evident, and "really something else". But, if it brought you joy, then I am fine with that. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I think I understood what I thought

I, too, think you understood what you thought. However, I think you didn't understand what I thought. Do you "know" or "understand" the difference?

...and am not really sure why you think that I wouldn't know what I know.

I hadn't and wouldn't think that you wouldn't, and I am not sure why you "think" that I would.

Do you somehow know what I think, Mr. Englund?

I know what you have said of your thinking in your last two responses to me.

Or did it bring you joy to think that you knew what I know?

At this point, all I think I knew or know of what you know is what you have said about your knowing that you really enjoy thinking about things that you don't know. And, no, my knowing that does not bring me joy. In fact, my knowing that, along with what I have observed over the course of our exchange, merely causes me to wonder if I may have inadvertantently been lured into an Abbott and Costello routine (something along the lines of Who's On First). ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-[/url]

[_The Nehor]

Didn't go to Sacrament Meeting yesterday. I was visiting friends Saturday night and from about 8 till 2:30 in the morning had one of the greatest spiritual discussions of my life.

Unfortunately our hostess got up to feed their 4 month old and she was wheezing horribly. I stayed all night to make sure their other kid was okay while they went to the ER. I then slept through Church due to exhaustion. I expect God will let me off the hook for that one.