A question I won't put in the Subject box....

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_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

beastie wrote:It's all about control. If you can control sexuality - even the most private act of masturbation or marital sex - you can control everything.


You think? You think the leaders say "let's restrict sexual activities so we can better control the masses."
_ajax18
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Post by _ajax18 »

beastie wrote:It's all about control. If you can control sexuality - even the most private act of masturbation or marital sex - you can control everything.


I guess I don't understand completely. Yes you can control anything if you can control their sex life, but why do they really care? I can see a good reason for controlling their money, yet my suspicions that these men carry on the Church for the sake of money are running pretty thin lately.

Is control the end in itself or is their some other end to the means?
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

You think? You think the leaders say "let's restrict sexual activities so we can better control the masses."


No, I think it is instinctual. And, once again, the leaders believe these things themselves. But look at how the pattern repeats itself, over and over, in religions that end up controlling quite a bit of the followers' lives. They exert some sort of control over sexuality as one of its primary tenets. Sometimes the control is manifest by demanding expressed sexuality, but in a certain way, or with certain people. I don't think this is a coincidence.

IF all religion is made up, then what you say makes sense. I find reading it in that light much more realistic than those who believe that the first presidency and apostles are all in cahoots to make us their slaves. If indeed religion is made up, then it seems natural that religions most effective at getting followers to act in a particular way would the ones to survive the longest.


No, it's not "cahoots", like some sort of conscious conspiracy. The leaders believe it, too. Your last sentence is closer to my thoughts, that this is part of an evolutionary process. I believe religion serves an evolutionary purpose because it is universal, and the most likely reason is the binding power for the group. It's the ultimate in tribalization.

All that said, if making masturbation a sin is a big thing for teenage boys, how do they keep teenage girls or indeed adults in check? It seems that at this stage in life control over my sexuality is done more with my spouse than by the church.


First, teenage girls are not asexual, but certainly control over sexual feelings is not the only way leaders control followers. And as an adult Mormon, you still are under constraints.

Take another intimate example - the wearing of garments. Why wear garments? So you are constantly reminded of your religious beliefs and obligations. Having to control sexuality in a certain way is another constant reminder.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

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_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

I guess I don't understand completely. Yes you can control anything if you can control their sex life, but why do they really care? I can see a good reason for controlling their money, yet my suspicions that these men carry on the Church for the sake of money are running pretty thin lately.

Is control the end in itself or is their some other end to the means?


I think that the willingness to allow leaders to control your most private essence - your sexuality - signals the willingness to allow leaders to control other things in your life, including the use of time and money.

I guess I'm just talking about a version of the investment paradigm.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_ajax18
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Post by _ajax18 »

Beastie do you think that perhaps some people imposed these things upon themselves as a sort of manifestation that they truly believed things that had no evidence. For instance fasting, chastity, tithing... I sometimes wonder if that was the origin of it all. Later, organized religion seems to have found a way to make money off of that. Maybe even some people like having an organization with leaders to get on their case and push them to do these things. I personally am a self motivator and don't like being told what to do. I recognize that some people are not.

Yet this still begs the question, "Why do we need fasting, sacrifice, or whatever to prove to anyone what we "know" in our hearts to be true of the afterlife?
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
_Lucretia MacEvil
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Post by _Lucretia MacEvil »

"The sex drive itself gave organized religion an opportunity to amass what was indisputably the greatest power ever lodged in human hands." Rabbi Abraham Feinberg
_Lucretia MacEvil
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Post by _Lucretia MacEvil »

The Nehor wrote:
Polygamy Porter wrote:Wool, c'mon... you are still in the guilted clutches of the cult, so since you cannot do much, much more , dry humping is about all you can get, no?


Has anyone ever told you you are disgusting? I would never discuss my sex life with you. You seem bound and determined to take that which is beautiful, fun, and exciting and make it as crass, cheap, and tawdry as you possibly can.


Oh, for heaven's sake. You opened the door, Nehor, and it's a little too late to get all self-righteous now.

Besides, there is no need for you to discuss your "sex life" with anyone. We know you are a single young Mormon, we know what the church allows you to do or not do, just the fact that you are a Mormon defines you in that sense as well as a few others.
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Beastie do you think that perhaps some people imposed these things upon themselves as a sort of manifestation that they truly believed things that had no evidence. For instance fasting, chastity, tithing... I sometimes wonder if that was the origin of it all. Later, organized religion seems to have found a way to make money off of that. Maybe even some people like having an organization with leaders to get on their case and push them to do these things. I personally am a self motivator and don't like being told what to do. I recognize that some people are not.

Yet this still begs the question, "Why do we need fasting, sacrifice, or whatever to prove to anyone what we "know" in our hearts to be true of the afterlife?



My opinion is that religion evolved as part and parcel of our ancestor's instinct to group into tribes. The dogma and practices are outward signs of loyalty and devotion to one's tribe. These practices also can help to differentiate between you and "the other" (tribe).

I suspect our ancestors had a better rate of survival and reproduction when they tended to form groups under one strong leader, and were willing to do what that one strong leader decided at the moment. To outwardly manifest in ways that required personal effort and sacrifice was a way of reassuring other members of your tribe that you were completely committed to the tribe, and worthy of reciprocal altruism.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_wenglund
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Post by _wenglund »

beastie wrote:It's all about control. If you can control sexuality - even the most private act of masturbation or marital sex - you can control everything.


Given your fundamentalist/authoritarian mindset, I can see how you might think that. After all, it makes sense that those, such as yourself, who are controlling, will see the beliefs and actions of others as "all about control". Such is the nature of projection.

Others of us, however, view religious-based sexual morals as navigational tools to assist the beloved traveler in life to steer away from the dangerous shouls of sexually transmitted deseases, out-of-wedlock and teen pregnancies, and other sexual behaviors that may well lead to the destruction of individuals and relationships, particularly the family. These navigational tools are not only lovingly intended to help the weak and the niave to avoid sorrow and hardship, but they are also designed to assist all in becoming their very best selves, and to satisfy the basic human needs to love and be loved and respect and be respected.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
_Scottie
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Post by _Scottie »

wenglund wrote:
beastie wrote:It's all about control. If you can control sexuality - even the most private act of masturbation or marital sex - you can control everything.


Given your fundamentalist/authoritarian mindset, I can see how you might think that. After all, it makes sense that those, such as yourself, who are controlling, will see the beliefs and actions of others as "all about control". Such is the nature of projection.

Others of us, however, view religious-based sexual morals as navigational tools to assist the beloved traveler in life to steer away from the dangerous shouls of sexually transmitted deseases, out-of-wedlock and teen pregnancies, and other sexual behaviors that may well lead to the destruction of individuals and relationships, particularly the family. These navigational tools are not only lovingly intended to help the weak and the niave to avoid sorrow and hardship, but they are also designed to assist all in becoming their very best selves, and to satisfy the basic human needs to love and be loved and respect and be respected.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

If you really believed that, you would support the healthy act of masturbation as a valid release of sexual tension.

Since masturbation is taboo and viewed as almost as bad as sex itself, well then, hell, why not just have sex?

I have a question. I know growing up in Utah County, masturbation as a teen was one of the worst cultural taboos a young man could do. If his peers found out he masturbated, it could ruin his life. Was this just because I lived in a Mormon community, or is this the same throughout the US?
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