Impotence or Omnipotence. A Question about the Mormon God

[_barrelomonkeys]

Bad night last night. Sorry.


You're right, theists are probably better than me.

I try to be a good person regardless of my faith or lack thereof.

I just am tired of the generalizations on both sides. I hope you realize Nehor that I don't make those generalizations about LDS.

Nehor, sometimes your words (and I'm not certain what it is about your words) really effect me in such a way that I become fairly emotional.

I'm not sure why this is. I'll try to think on that and control myself better in the future.

[_ozemc]

I guess the big question is ... how do we know? I mean, for sure. We can all believe there's a God or not, but there's no way to really know.

Follow the Savior's advice, "Come and See." Then try it. Live some of it and judge the results.

Nehor, I am a Christian. I do believe in Christ.

However, that being said, I fully realize that my belief is not the same as knowing.

By it's nature, it is impossible for the natural to know the supernatural.

[_ozemc]

Not only did you get exactly backwards what I have said (as previously demonstrated), but you now compound that nonsense by falsely assuming that I was somehow placing conditions on faith, and that I was taking a swipe at KA's faith journey. In truth, I was mearly ASKING KA whether her sister's faith journey was the same as KA's, or more like mine. No conditions were placed on anyone by that QUESTION. No swipe is being made by that QUESTION.

I am caused to wonder how you could so profoundly misread my relatively simple and obvious question. If you aren't daft or comprehension impaired or if you can understand plain English, than the only explanation that I can see that fits is that you have a stereotyped perception of LDS and their thinking, and you have wrongfully passed my comments through that faulty filter. Am I wrong about that? If so, what explanationn do you have to explain your tortured renderings of what I say?

"If you aren't daft or comprehension impaired or if you can understand plain English"?

Hmmm ..... maybe my explanation is that you're a condescending jackass, who will go on and on with circles of logic and reasoning to try and hide the fact that you have an elitist, arrogant, crass, and boorish attitude. You remind me of the guy at a party who walks around with his nose in the air and a smug look on his face since he has to associate with "those" people. You do it to show how much better you are. What a jerk.

I am sorry, but I don't see where you specifically answered my question about what you mean by "rabbit hole". Could you please point it out, or provide a direct answer if you haven't already? You merely expounded a bit more on your chosen example without explaining how faith-perceptions regarding sporting events relate to faith journeys consequential to personal infirmities (like hearing defeects) and deprevations (like in Africa).

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Gadianton]

Since I tend to have the opposite faith-reaction to certain tragedies than you, perhaps I can describe some of my own relevant thought-processes, and see whether or how they differ from your's, and perhaps thereby illuminate both our understandings.

First and foremost, I try not to view tragedies as defining the people involved. For example, when I think of Africans who are starving and deprived, I try to view them as more than just that. I consciously attempt to make myself aware of other significant aspects of the Africans' lives. While I may see the swollen bellies and the looks of hunger and flies swarming around the faces of the African children, I also note how they are embraced by loving parents, and how they may dance with excitement at the visit of a stranger, and the joyful way they still are able to play like other children around the world, as well as the magestic beauty of nature that surrounds them and the simple pragmatism of their somewhat enviable minimilistic lives. I see good, hardworking, and decent people. I see their amazing skills and heroic capacity to survive, their oft amiable and inspiring perserverance in the face of formitable challenges. etc. In other words, I look at more than what may be wrong with the situation (the tragedy, itself), and am able to see much that is right. I do this not to diminish the significance of the tragedy, but rather to put the tragedy into what I see as proper and balanced perspective.

What about you?

Can you see how viewing tragedies this way may give place for belief in God--I.e. perhaps enabling us to see Him in all that may be right about the situation, if not in the tragedies themselves?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Wade, when I speak of tragedy and losing faith I speak of my own pain while I called out for God to bring me comfort and relief. I did not lose my belief in God when I viewed the suffering of others, I lost my belief that God loved me or was present in this world (if indeed He ever was) when I myself felt deserted and without Him. This was after knowing He was a constant and present part of my life.

To some degree I can empathize with your experience. Several decades ago I hit a real lowpoint in my life, and as I would pray to find comfort and understanding and strength, my plaintiff cries seemed as if they went entirely unanswered and as if my every word to God simply bounced off the ceiling. And, as I would read through the scriptures, or listen at Church, nothing resonated with me nor openned avenues of relief like before. I, too, felt abandon by God at the moment when my needs were seemingly most great. This was not something that lasted a couple of days or even for a few weeks, but mounted up into many years.

However, rather than this causing me to doubt the existence of God (since, like you, I had felt Him strongly in my life prior to that time, and couldn't deny that), it gave me a profound appreciation for Christ's atoning sacrifice and a richer understanding of his saying "My God, my God, why hast thou foresaken me". It also gave me the capacity to understand and relate to those going through similar experiences, but even more so, it gave me greater insight into what it is like for people to grow up outside the gospel, and what it is like for them not having God heavily in their lives, or at least their not being fully aware of His presence in their lives. I also recognized that for me to grow in faith, my faith must be tested, and that test, of necessity, required that God withdraw his immediate presence from me even, and perhaps particularly, during my most trying time.

In time, and through the subsequent expansion of my faith, I was able to see evidence of God's presence in many ways more than prior to His supposed abandoning me. (I say "supposed abandoning me" because now that I am able to look back over that time with eyes of increased faith and am better able to see spiritually, I have been made aware that God was actually with me and lovingly watching over me during that time. I liken it to when a father helps his child learn to ride a bike by first running alongside the bike and stabalizing it with his strong arm and hand, though at some point letting go even in spite of the worried and frenetic plees of the child for him to continue, and though he has somewhat withdrawn, he is still there watching lovingly and protectively over his child, taking joy and pleasure in seeing the child wabbling on its own and eventually learning to ride the bike with great skill and confidence.)

Now, I am not sure my telling this experience will be of any help or interest to you, but there it is.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Tarski]

Since I tend to have the opposite faith-reaction to certain tragedies than you, perhaps I can describe some of my own relevant thought-processes, and see whether or how they differ from your's, and perhaps thereby illuminate both our understandings.

the significance of the tragedy, but rather to put the tragedy into what I see as proper and balanced perspective.

What about you?

Can you see how viewing tragedies this way may give place for belief in God--I.e. perhaps enabling us to see Him in all that may be right about the situation, if not in the tragedies themselves?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Wade, when I speak of tragedy and losing faith I speak of my own pain while I called out for God to bring me comfort and relief. I did not lose my belief in God when I viewed the suffering of others, I lost my belief that God loved me or was present in this world (if indeed He ever was) when I myself felt deserted and without Him. This was after knowing He was a constant and present part of my life.

To some degree I can empathize with your experience. Several decades ago I hit a real lowpoint in my life, and as I would pray to find comfort and understanding and strength, my plaintiff cries seemed as if they went entirely unanswered and as if my every word to God simply bounced off the ceiling. And, as I would read through the scriptures, or listen at Church, nothing resonated with me nor openned avenues of relief like before. I, too, felt abandon by God at the moment when my needs were seemingly most great. This was not something that lasted a couple of days or even for a few weeks, but mounted up into many years.

However, rather than this causing me to doubt the existence of God (since, like you, I had felt Him strongly in my life prior to that time, .........
helps his child learn to ride a bike by first running alongside the bike and stabalizing it with his strong arm and hand, though at some point letting go even in spite of the worried and frenetic plees of the child for him to continue, and though he has somewhat withdrawn, he is still there watching lovingly and protectively over his child, taking joy and pleasure in seeing the child wabbling on its own and eventually learning to ride the bike with great skill and confidence.)

Now, I am not sure my telling this experience will be of any help or interest to you, but there it is.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

And yet all of these stories are perfectly consistent with the idea that there is no God. In fact, looking at the big picture, the no god hypothesis is a much much better fit.

[_The Nehor]

Bad night last night. Sorry.


You're right, theists are probably better than me.

I try to be a good person regardless of my faith or lack thereof.

I just am tired of the generalizations on both sides. I hope you realize Nehor that I don't make those generalizations about LDS.

Nehor, sometimes your words (and I'm not certain what it is about your words) really effect me in such a way that I become fairly emotional.

I'm not sure why this is. I'll try to think on that and control myself better in the future.

I owe you an apology too, I was snippy last night due to circumstances unrelated to anything here. I got a little too invested and defensive. Sorry.

[_wenglund]

And yet all of these stories are perfectly consistent with the idea that there is no God. In fact, looking at the big picture, the no god hypothesis is a much much better fit.

While it is true that these stories don't necessitate a belief in God (though I believe they do leave ample room for belief in God), I reasonably disagree that the big picture makes the "no God" hypothesis a much better fit. To me, the "better fit" is in the eye of the beholder.

Besides, as I see things, it isn't just about what hypothesis may "fit" best, but also about which hypothesis may prove most valuable in improving one's own life (on a variety of levels) and enabling them to assist in the improvement of the lives of others--though perhaps here too the "most valuable" may be in the eye of the beholder.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Tarski]

And yet all of these stories are perfectly consistent with the idea that there is no God. In fact, looking at the big picture, the no god hypothesis is a much much better fit.

While it is true that these stories don't necessitate a belief in God (though I believe they do leave ample room for belief in God), I reasonably disagree that the big picture makes the "no God" hypothesis a much better fit. To me, the "better fit" is in the eye of the beholder.

Besides, as I see things, it isn't just about what hypothesis may "fit" best, but also about which hypothesis may prove most valuable in improving one's own life (on a variety of levels) and enabling them to assist in the improvement of the lives of others-

Indeed, it is quite clear that the God hypothesis serves the purposes of making one's life more tolerable--at least for a large number of people. Underneath it all, it seems that many people believe in God not because it really seems likely that God exists, but rather because without that comforting belief they feel lost, discouraged and uncertain. God is certainly a comforting hypothesis that does indeed help people through rough times. In has a unifying effect on one’s world view and provides a sense of meaning. But at the cost of knowing that bare truth of things.
I'm sure it worked that way for believers in the classical Greek gods or the Norse gods. I am sure that thoughts of the Buddha have comforted many and that Buddhism has provided a unifying, organizing cosmic backdrop to many lives.

It may even be that belief in God is healthy in some sense. But none of this goes anyway toward providing evidence that God actually exists. Furthermore, there is much lost when one jumps to a belief in the supernatural; namely, the ability to see the problems in the world as our responsibility and as something that no gods are going to fix for us. This includes suffering, hunger, destruction of the environment, war and political strife and much more. We really are on our own and it is dangerous not to realize it.

[_Yoda]

Besides, as I see things, it isn't just about what hypothesis may "fit" best, but also about which hypothesis may prove most valuable in improving one's own life (on a variety of levels) and enabling them to assist in the improvement of the lives of others--though perhaps here too the "most valuable" may be in the eye of the beholder.

I agree with you here, Wade.

*Looking around to see if lightning is going to strike...Wade and I are agreeing on something..*

;)

My view on the OP is this:

Whether or not God exists, if a belief in God allows you to be a better person...a better parent...a better contributor to society, then believe in God!

If some other belief helps you accomplish these things, then go that route.

What I think is important in the end, is how we treat each other.

[_barrelomonkeys]

To some degree I can empathize with your experience. Several decades ago I hit a real lowpoint in my life, and as I would pray to find comfort and understanding and strength, my plaintiff cries seemed as if they went entirely unanswered and as if my every word to God simply bounced off the ceiling. And, as I would read through the scriptures, or listen at Church, nothing resonated with me nor openned avenues of relief like before. I, too, felt abandon by God at the moment when my needs were seemingly most great. This was not something that lasted a couple of days or even for a few weeks, but mounted up into many years.

However, rather than this causing me to doubt the existence of God (since, like you, I had felt Him strongly in my life prior to that time, and couldn't deny that), it gave me a profound appreciation for Christ's atoning sacrifice and a richer understanding of his saying "My God, my God, why hast thou foresaken me". It also gave me the capacity to understand and relate to those going through similar experiences, but even more so, it gave me greater insight into what it is like for people to grow up outside the gospel, and what it is like for them not having God heavily in their lives, or at least their not being fully aware of His presence in their lives. I also recognized that for me to grow in faith, my faith must be tested, and that test, of necessity, required that God withdraw his immediate presence from me even, and perhaps particularly, during my most trying time.

In time, and through the subsequent expansion of my faith, I was able to see evidence of God's presence in many ways more than prior to His supposed abandoning me. (I say "supposed abandoning me" because now that I am able to look back over that time with eyes of increased faith and am better able to see spiritually, I have been made aware that God was actually with me and lovingly watching over me during that time. I liken it to when a father helps his child learn to ride a bike by first running alongside the bike and stabalizing it with his strong arm and hand, though at some point letting go even in spite of the worried and frenetic plees of the child for him to continue, and though he has somewhat withdrawn, he is still there watching lovingly and protectively over his child, taking joy and pleasure in seeing the child wabbling on its own and eventually learning to ride the bike with great skill and confidence.)

Now, I am not sure my telling this experience will be of any help or interest to you, but there it is.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Wade, thank you for sharing your story. I believe much of how I view life, and my past experiences, has to do with my temperament and perhaps I need to focus on the many joys I've experienced in this life (and my resiliency) when I think back upon my life.

I don't know if I will ever again have faith in God. I don't know if that is what I need in my life. I do know that I will not close any route that may lead me to a life that is peaceful and fulfilled.

Thanks again.