Sethbag wrote: What, exactly, makes a Mormon so different that they aren't susceptible to the same delusion with respect to their beliefs that almost every other religious person in the world is apparently susceptible to?
I really am trying to develop an approach that breaks down the notion that LDS are somehow special, and not subject to the same kinds of experiences of false faith that almost everyone else in the world who is religious must be subject to. If an LDS person can realize that they just might be susceptible to the same kinds of weaknesses of belief as everyone else, I think they will have a good start toward being able to seriously consider that the LDS church might in fact be wrong. Being able to consider that as a very real possibility is absolutely necessary before anyone can approach the true LDS history without a knee-jerk impulse to find ways of excusing it all away somehow.
Thanks for all your comments so far.
The problem is that Mormons, and other true believers, really do think they're special. In fact, belief in personal "specialhood" is a pre-requisite for this type of belief.
When it's obvious that God does not answer all prayers, that he fails to intervene in millions and millions of cases, despite fervent pleadings from the faithful, why would anyone expect God to answer them? It's because at some level, they believe they are special. For some unknown reason, God will ignore countless others, but he will intervene on their behalf. There's no rational way to explain it, it ultimately devolves down to a perception that the person is, for whatever reason, an exception, possessing a certain special status such that God, though he ignores millions of others, will answer his/her pleadings.
The assumption of specialhood, for example, is implied every time a believer who is sparred a tragedy that befalls others thanks God for her safety.
Nehor is an example. Billions of people have traversed this planet without God so much as taking a notice of them, while our good friend Nehor claims an intimate, sure knowledge; not only that, God regularly talks to him and reveals to him God's will. Why Nehor? Why not the billions of other people inhabiting this planet?
Why you Nehor, what makes you so special?
A friend of mine and I were talking one day and he mentioned that most people, those that do believe in God, believe that He set the world in motion, and has since left it alone, but .... that if we pray really, really hard, He'll change His mind.
"What does God need with a starship?" - Captain James T. Kirk
Most people would like to be delivered from temptation but would like it to keep in touch. - Robert Orben
The Nehor wrote:Assume for a moment that we're right and that what we say could keep you out of hell for a time. Is it arrogance to share that or worry about it? If I believe it (as I do) I would have to be a monster not to share it.
It's arrogant to assume people are going to hell because they do not believe as you do, Nehor. It's equally arrogant to assume anything you might say could keep them from going there, even if hell were a real place.
And if you're right, and Mormon God is the best there is, then I'll go to hell rather than worship him.
KA
It's arrogant to assume that anything I say or do can help or hinder anyone on the planet with their spiritual destiny? Part of me wishes I could believe that.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
The Nehor wrote:Assume for a moment that we're right and that what we say could keep you out of hell for a time. Is it arrogance to share that or worry about it? If I believe it (as I do) I would have to be a monster not to share it.
Absolutely. That is why Evangelicals, and Baptists, and born agains are so adamantly anti-mormon. They are trying to save you from hell. To them, you are stepping onto that train track and they need to get you off, no matter how rude or arrogant they may seem. If that means peeing on Book of Mormons on temple square, or wearing temple garments to get your attention, so be it. They are only trying to save you.
I understand zeal but I also believe in being smart about it. Can they say that peeing on Book of Mormons and parading around in Temple Garments have helped any LDS find the truth? I think they do more harm than good. I also believe breaking the commandments of God while trying to bring people to God is an awful thing. I have a close friend who is an evangelical who sincerely believes I'm going to hell and has told me so in a very Christlike way. His presentation was sincere and I thanked him for it. If anyone is going to get through to people HE IS THE ROLE MODEL. I had some of what he had on my Mission, I hope I have more now.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
guy sajer wrote:The problem is that Mormons, and other true believers, really do think they're special. In fact, belief in personal "specialhood" is a pre-requisite for this type of belief.
When it's obvious that God does not answer all prayers, that he fails to intervene in millions and millions of cases, despite fervent pleadings from the faithful, why would anyone expect God to answer them? It's because at some level, they believe they are special. For some unknown reason, God will ignore countless others, but he will intervene on their behalf. There's no rational way to explain it, it ultimately devolves down to a perception that the person is, for whatever reason, an exception, possessing a certain special status such that God, though he ignores millions of others, will answer his/her pleadings.
The assumption of specialhood, for example, is implied every time a believer who is sparred a tragedy that befalls others thanks God for her safety.
Nehor is an example. Billions of people have traversed this planet without God so much as taking a notice of them, while our good friend Nehor claims an intimate, sure knowledge; not only that, God regularly talks to him and reveals to him God's will. Why Nehor? Why not the billions of other people inhabiting this planet?
Why you Nehor, what makes you so special?
I don't know why he bothers with me. I don't think I'm that special though though he does answer my pleadings. I honestly and sincerely believe that others can do the same things I have and experience the same things I have experienced. If me, why not everyone else?
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
I don't know if it's arrogant or not, but I don't think it possible for me to effect the ultimate destiny of someone. If this were not so then people will be punished for my actions instead of each being punished for their own. Parents, sour grapes, teeth on edge and all that jazz (Ezekial 18).
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy. eritis sicut dii I support NCMO
The Nehor wrote:I understand zeal but I also believe in being smart about it. Can they say that peeing on Book of Mormons and parading around in Temple Garments have helped any LDS find the truth? I think they do more harm than good. I also believe breaking the commandments of God while trying to bring people to God is an awful thing. I have a close friend who is an evangelical who sincerely believes I'm going to hell and has told me so in a very Christlike way. His presentation was sincere and I thanked him for it. If anyone is going to get through to people HE IS THE ROLE MODEL. I had some of what he had on my Mission, I hope I have more now.
But look at it this way, Nehor. While both you and I appreciate your evangelical friend's presentation more, it apparently was ineffective in getting you to change your mind. What we'd need is the story of how such a presentation actually helped accomplish the goal which the evangelicals had in mind and demonstrate that it is indeed more effective.
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy. eritis sicut dii I support NCMO
guy sajer wrote:The problem is that Mormons, and other true believers, really do think they're special. In fact, belief in personal "specialhood" is a pre-requisite for this type of belief.
When it's obvious that God does not answer all prayers, that he fails to intervene in millions and millions of cases, despite fervent pleadings from the faithful, why would anyone expect God to answer them? It's because at some level, they believe they are special. For some unknown reason, God will ignore countless others, but he will intervene on their behalf. There's no rational way to explain it, it ultimately devolves down to a perception that the person is, for whatever reason, an exception, possessing a certain special status such that God, though he ignores millions of others, will answer his/her pleadings.
The assumption of specialhood, for example, is implied every time a believer who is sparred a tragedy that befalls others thanks God for her safety.
Nehor is an example. Billions of people have traversed this planet without God so much as taking a notice of them, while our good friend Nehor claims an intimate, sure knowledge; not only that, God regularly talks to him and reveals to him God's will. Why Nehor? Why not the billions of other people inhabiting this planet?
Why you Nehor, what makes you so special?
I don't know why he bothers with me. I don't think I'm that special though though he does answer my pleadings. I honestly and sincerely believe that others can do the same things I have and experience the same things I have experienced. If me, why not everyone else?
Because you're an archetype of the believer. (Though I would not consider you a "true" believer, you appear to sensible to do really dumb, hurtful things in God's name.)
You miss the point: They HAVEN'T experienced the same things you have. Why not? Why you?
That aside, I don't mean to pick on you. I'm sorry if it comes across that way.
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."
guy sajer wrote:Because you're an archetype of the believer. (Though I would not consider you a "true" believer, you appear to sensible to do really dumb, hurtful things in God's name.)
You miss the point: They HAVEN'T experienced the same things you have. Why not? Why you?
That aside, I don't mean to pick on you. I'm sorry if it comes across that way.
Doing dumb and hurtful things is doing the Lord's work using the devil's tactics. It also transforms the person doing it into the devil's servant.
To answer your question (a fair one by the way) I don't know. I suspect it has much to do with the Gift of the Holy Ghost making the impressions more direct and more powerful. Through baptism I took upon myself the name of Christ which means in many ways I am him.....as much as I allow myself to be anyways. I don't feel at all arrogant making that statement no matter how much it sounds like it. It's actually humbling because I don't deserve it and I know that. Through baptism I made to him a simple declaration that I want to be Christ which I am not. He has promised to make it so. There has been a lot of pain, a lot of joy, a lot of worry, and a lot of repentance but in the end I believe he'll do what he said.
One reason I think so many prayers go unanswered is God will not be used as a convenience. Praying because you are in trouble and then forgetting him when the trouble passes is using him as a magic trick to get you out of danger. He wants people dedicated to becoming like him not people who simply believe in a series of theological propositions.
In the end though I don't know how and why he picks certain prayers to act on. He hasn't acted on all of mine....but I have never failed to find him when I really wanted to in prayer (sometimes it's sad but I don't want to) but I can't force action or even information out of him. I hope that clears my views up some.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
The Nehor wrote:In the end though I don't know how and why he picks certain prayers to act on.
I figured as much. This is the answer I always get.
Thanks for your response. I appreciate your good faith effort to respond. I actually understand you more than you probably think.
As you are, I once was. As I am, you may become.
Or something like that.
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."
guy sajer wrote:I figured as much. This is the answer I always get.
Thanks for your response. I appreciate your good faith effort to respond. I actually understand you more than you probably think.
As you are, I once was. As I am, you may become.
Or something like that.
I doubt it but I know by sad experience I'm not immune to every attack on my faith.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo