MAD thread: Daniel Peterson Agrees That Church Presents...

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_beastie
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MAD thread: Daniel Peterson Agrees That Church Presents...

Post by _beastie »

Daniel Peterson Agrees That Church Presents History, in which "Mormons always wear the white hats"


http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index. ... 26724&st=0

Here's the opening post:

In the latest FARMS issue, Daniel C. Peterson states the following in the Editor's Introduction (emphasis below is mine):

QUOTE
Inoculation
Writing in his journal about Rough Stone Rolling, Bushman remarks that "part of my purpose in writing is to introduce the troublesome material into the standard account to prevent horrible shocks later."69

QUOTE
(This quote is from Bushman) The real question is, Should we hide troublesome things from the Saints and hope they will never find out? The problem then is what happens when they do. They are disillusioned and in danger of mistrusting everything they have been told. . . . Amazingly, many LDS don't know Joseph married thirty women. We have to get these facts out to be dealt with; otherwise we are in a vulnerable position. It may be my job to bring the whole of Joseph's story into the open.70

I keep hearing of young people who are shocked to discover the ideal Joseph Smith they learned about in Church is not the Joseph Smith most scholars perceive. Taken aback, the young Mormons not only wonder about the Prophet but about their teachers. Everything comes tumbling down.71

I worry about the young Latter-day Saints who learn only about the saintly Joseph and are shocked to discover his failings. The problem is that they may lose faith in the entire teaching system that brought them along. If their teachers covered up Joseph Smith's flaws, what else are they hiding?72


(DCP continues here)
I share Bushman's concerns and have reflected on this issue for a long time. I've repeatedly used the metaphor of inoculation to express what I have in mind. A friendly and well-intentioned healthcare professional injects a patient with a benign form of a disease under favorable circumstances so that, later on, when the patient encounters a more threatening form of the disease in more hostile environs, he or she will be immune to its ravages. It seems to me far preferable that Latter-day Saints hear about potentially difficult issues from fellow believers who have accommodated the facts into their faith than that they be confronted by such issues at the hands of people who seek to use new information to surprise them, undermine their confidence in the church and its leaders, and destroy their religious beliefs.

Many years ago, while a graduate student in California, I heard the late Stanley B. Kimball (a Latter-day Saint scholar who taught at Southern Illinois University and published extensively on both European and Latter-day Saint historical subjects) speak to a small group about what he termed "the three levels of Mormon history."

He called the first of these "level A." This level, he said, is the Junior Sunday School version of church history, in which Mormons always wear the white hats, nobody disagrees, no leader ever makes a mistake, and all is unambiguously clear.

"Level B," he said, is the anti-Mormon version of church history—essentially a mirror image of level A or, alternatively, level A turned on its head. On level B, everything that you thought was good and true is actually false and bad. The Mormons (or, at least, their leaders) always or almost always wear black hats, and, to the extent that everything is unambiguously clear, Mormonism is unambiguously fraudulent, bogus, deceptive, and evil. Much in the level B version of Mormonism is simply false, of course; critics of the church have often failed to distinguish themselves for their honesty or for the care with which they've treated the issues they raise. But, in more than a few instances, level B approaches to Mormonism and its past are based on problems that are more or less real.

The church, Kimball reflected, tends to teach level A history. The trouble with this is that, like someone who has been kept in a germ-free environment and is then exposed to an infectious disease, a person on level A who is exposed to any of the issues that are the fodder for level B will have little resistance and will be likely to fall.

The only hope in such a case, he continued, is to press on to what he termed "level C," which is a version of church history that remains affirmative but which also takes into account any and all legitimate points stressed by level B. Those on level C are largely impervious to infection from level B. Level B formulations simply don't impress them. (Davis Bitton was a signal example of this. He knew far more about the Latter-day Saint past than the Internet critics who so glibly assert that Mormon testimonies cannot survive exposure to accurate Mormon history, yet he remained exuberantly faithful to the end.)

Kimball said that he and his fellow historians operate on level C, and that, on the whole, that's where he (as a professional historian) would prefer members to be. He was deeply convinced, he said, that level C was essentially like level A, except that it is more nuanced and somewhat more ambiguous. (He emphatically denied that level A is "false," or that the church "lies" in teaching it.) He acknowledged, though, that, were he himself a high-ranking church leader, he would be hesitant to take the membership as a whole to level C by means of church curriculum and instruction for the obvious reason that moving people from level A to level C entails at least some exposure to some of the elements of level B, and that such exposure will unavoidably lead some to lose their testimonies. Still, he felt that those who make it through to level C are more stable and resilient in their faith than those who remain on level A.

Stanley Kimball's analysis strikes me as profoundly true.73


So, DCP believes that what Bro. Kimball said was "profoundly true" and Bro. Kimball "reflected" that the Church "tends to teach level A history." Bro. Kimball described "level A history" as "the Junior Sunday School version of church history, in which Mormons always wear the white hats, nobody disagrees, no leader ever makes a mistake, and all is unambiguously clear."

So, simple logic demonstrates that both Bro. Kimball and DCP agree that "the Church tends to teach a history in which Mormons always wear the white hats, nobody disagrees, no leader ever makes a mistake, and all is unambiguously clear."

Then why all the insults hurled at those who assert that the Church has indeed presented an "adoring history" that fails to deal with matters "unfavorable" (to use Elder Oaks' words) that led to them being blindsided upon learning certain historical facts? Why the continuing effort to scour hundreds of thousands of pages to prove that the Church has occasionally "touched on" controversial issues, when the top LDS apologist and an apostle both agree that the Church's tendency has been, intentionally, to avoid such matters?

Indeed, why does DCP offer, above, a potential solution of "inoculation" if it is the case that the Church has never hidden its history or tried to keep controversial issues from its general membership? If this were the case, why would a new approach of inoculation be necessary? Why would a transition from a "level A" history to a "level C" history even be necessary.

A quick look at the threads on these historical issues indicate that most of the "defenders" on this board believe the membership is to blame if they do not know the history (in expressing this point, some posters have been particularly aggressive). Why does DCP suggest that the Church needs to change its approach instead of taking the position of many on this board that it is the members who need to change their approach, as they are the [insert pejorative here] who failed to find the five or six non-official books, or three issues of the Ensign, or one version of the institute manual from (1981 was it) that talked about these issues?


I remember suggesting this sort of "innoculation" way back when MAD was FAIR. (cough) Yet the predictable characters jumped on me and acted as if I were suggesting something outrageous. So, as if I didn't already know this, some of the more vocal MADdites react to suggestions completely based on who made the suggestion rather than the merits of the suggestion itself. I'll try to find the actual old thread to link, from memory, dart (kevin g) supported my suggestion while other believers jeered.

Second, the spin: despite the fact that the OP was careful to actually quote Peterson instead of paraphrase him, DCP accuses him of "overstating" his point for propaganda purposes.

Don't overstate my position for propaganda advantage.

I've never denied that Sunday School lessons tend to accentuate the positive and unambiguous. In fact, I've said so on numerous occasions. But I deny that the Church hides negative and ambiguous elements of its history. Moreover, I've always pointed out that fuller and more detailed treatments of its history have been widely and relatively easily accessible for years, and that alienated members and ex-members who complain that they were never told about _____________ (fill in the blank) should generally blame themselves rather than the Church. Solid academic books and articles about the Mountain Meadows Massacre and the different accounts of the First Vision and the biographies of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young (and etc., and etc.) have been widely available for decades.


So the church doesn't hide controversial issues, it simply doesn't talk about them in formal meetings. Hence, it is the faithful member's responsibility to somehow know these issues exist and then look for information about them. I guess maybe the Holy Ghost should be whispering to members that they ought to investigate early polygamy, treasure seeking, the translation of the Book of Abraham, etc? Just how are these members supposed to know that controversial issues exist when the church refuses to even mention them in formal meetings?

What I think is particularly funny is the protest that the church just doesn't have TIME to deal with these issues in formal meetings.

Juliann:

I think the whine is that these things are not taught in Sunday School on a rotating basis, we could have a year on the Kinderhook Plates, a year on Polygamy, a year on peepstones and a year on Marriott hotels.


First, a moment of appreciation for Juliann's well-known sensitivity and compassion.

Second, this just made me laugh out loud. Church meetings consist of repeating the same lessons over and over and over and over and over and over and over. (hence creating the Mormon male tradition of leaning forward, putting heads in hands as if deep in thought, to nap)

I guarantee you, based on my experience with LDS meetings, that the LDS church could take one meeting a month to deal with controversies, and still have plenty of time to repeat the other lessons over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over..........
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

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_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Another comment from DCP:

QUOTE(Scottie @ Aug 8 2007, 11:32 AM) *
Yes, I'm sure that all the hundreds of people that claim this over at RfM are just lying and doing it because they simply hate the church, right??

I have no idea about them.

I can only say that, after growing up in California, attending BYU, serving a mission in Switzerland, finishing at BYU, living and studying in branches in Jerusalem and Cairo, doing graduate work in California, moving to Utah and teaching at BYU, teaching in Jerusalem, traveling extensively in Asia, Africa, Europe, the Near East, Latin America, the United Kingdom, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, and most of the United States, I've never heard any bishop or any stake president say anything of the kind. Not even once.

Perhaps I need to get out more.

I'm going to Estonia in a month. (Among other places.) I've never been to Estonia before. Maybe that's where it's happening.


Wow. I guess the missionaries who advised me against reading "anti Mormon literature" because the devil would work really hard to get me to change my mind about baptism, and my family members who kept telling me not to read anti Mormon literature, and my own desire to avoid anti Mormon literature was nothing more than the product of our active imaginations.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_KimberlyAnn
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Post by _KimberlyAnn »

beastie wrote:Wow. I guess the missionaries who advised me against reading "anti Mormon literature" because the devil would work really hard to get me to change my mind about baptism, and my family members who kept telling me not to read anti Mormon literature, and my own desire to avoid anti Mormon literature was nothing more than the product of our active imaginations.


HA! I was told by my Bishop not to read McConkie's Mormon Doctrine. It wasn't faith promoting, I guess.

Also, when I attempted to have him read an article I pulled off SHIELDS, the Bishop steadfastly refused to look at it, let alone read it, because he felt it was anti-Mormon literature! It was comical - he was in my living room and touched the article like it was contaminated and then placed it, FACE DOWN, on the end table! I'm cracking up just thinking about it.

I was, several times, told by my bishop, the missionaries, and my family and friends, to avoid anything not faith promoting, even if it was historically accurate history of the Mormon church. I think they would have told me to stop reading the Bible if it were making me doubt my faith.

KA
_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

beastie wrote:Another comment from DCP:

QUOTE(Scottie @ Aug 8 2007, 11:32 AM) *
Yes, I'm sure that all the hundreds of people that claim this over at RfM are just lying and doing it because they simply hate the church, right??

I have no idea about them.

I can only say that, after growing up in California, attending BYU, serving a mission in Switzerland, finishing at BYU, living and studying in branches in Jerusalem and Cairo, doing graduate work in California, moving to Utah and teaching at BYU, teaching in Jerusalem, traveling extensively in Asia, Africa, Europe, the Near East, Latin America, the United Kingdom, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, and most of the United States, I've never heard any bishop or any stake president say anything of the kind. Not even once.

Perhaps I need to get out more.

I'm going to Estonia in a month. (Among other places.) I've never been to Estonia before. Maybe that's where it's happening.


Wow. I guess the missionaries who advised me against reading "anti Mormon literature" because the devil would work really hard to get me to change my mind about baptism, and my family members who kept telling me not to read anti Mormon literature, and my own desire to avoid anti Mormon literature was nothing more than the product of our active imaginations.


I am amazed Peterson claims that nobody tell people to avoid anti and critical material. Why there was just a thread here on an article from the New Era that does just that. Numerous times I have had members look at me like I was from outer space when I talked to them about some of the critical material I ha run into. Many say they have been told to never read such information. 6 months ago a member stood up in a testimony meeting and talked about a friend who had left the Church because of getting into critical material. This member said he had never read such information and never would and was proud of it. This tends to be the prevailing view.

And further, if I read the OP correctly Peterson agreed that the Church teaches a more faith promoting history in his FARMS remarks, then he back peddled significantly. Why did he do that? I would like to see what he has to say about it.

As for Julienne, well everyone is a whiner to her. That is her favorite word. She is condescending no doubt. The Church has plenty of time and ability to present the C type history if they want to. But the question fro them is balance. Will they lose more members by the innoculating or will they lose more ny teaching the more white hat history and letting a few fall by the way when they discover it on their own.

Last of all does anyone realise how stupid the "Well it is your own fault you did not study enough to find out these things." This a a duh!!! moment. The people did find out on their own when they decided to study it out. They had to do it on their own. So when the decided to pursue more about the history an found it was not the plain vanilla peddled to them in SS, seminary, conference talks and so forth they became disillusioned. What. were they supposed toe read Quinn or Mormon Enigma or Compton when they were 10 or 12 year old? Maybe RSR will be read by all those studious 8 year olds before they are baptized. You see Julliean, it was when the member siad "Hey, I will read some church history and expand myself" that they found out. So in the act of doing what you criticize them for not doing is what led to disaffection. Inoculation could help a lot of this.
_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

KimberlyAnn wrote:
beastie wrote:Wow. I guess the missionaries who advised me against reading "anti Mormon literature" because the devil would work really hard to get me to change my mind about baptism, and my family members who kept telling me not to read anti Mormon literature, and my own desire to avoid anti Mormon literature was nothing more than the product of our active imaginations.


HA! I was told by my Bishop not to read McConkie's Mormon Doctrine. It wasn't faith promoting, I guess.

Also, when I attempted to have him read an article I pulled off SHIELDS, the Bishop steadfastly refused to look at it, let alone read it, because he felt it was anti-Mormon literature! It was comical - he was in my living room and touched the article like it was contaminated and then placed it, FACE DOWN, on the end table! I'm cracking up just thinking about it.

I was, several times, told by my bishop, the missionaries, and my family and friends, to avoid anything not faith promoting, even if it was historically accurate history of the Mormon church. I think they would have told me to stop reading the Bible if it were making me doubt my faith.

KA


This brings to memory a time when a bishop pf mine said not to have any thing anti at all in your house because it would bring the spirit of Satan into your home.
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Post by _guy sajer »

beastie wrote:Another comment from DCP:

QUOTE(Scottie @ Aug 8 2007, 11:32 AM) *
Yes, I'm sure that all the hundreds of people that claim this over at RfM are just lying and doing it because they simply hate the church, right??

I have no idea about them.

I can only say that, after growing up in California, attending BYU, serving a mission in Switzerland, finishing at BYU, living and studying in branches in Jerusalem and Cairo, doing graduate work in California, moving to Utah and teaching at BYU, teaching in Jerusalem, traveling extensively in Asia, Africa, Europe, the Near East, Latin America, the United Kingdom, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, and most of the United States, I've never heard any bishop or any stake president say anything of the kind. Not even once.

Perhaps I need to get out more.

I'm going to Estonia in a month. (Among other places.) I've never been to Estonia before. Maybe that's where it's happening.


Wow. I guess the missionaries who advised me against reading "anti Mormon literature" because the devil would work really hard to get me to change my mind about baptism, and my family members who kept telling me not to read anti Mormon literature, and my own desire to avoid anti Mormon literature was nothing more than the product of our active imaginations.


When I lived in Provo, I read "In Sacred Loneliness," and I shared what I read and my impressions with a friend in my ward one day when we were up the canyon to go kayaking. A couple of weeks later, I got a call from the SP inviting me to his office to talk. He wanted to know why I was trying to destroy members' testimonies. When I asked what he meant (as I was at BYU and was careful to keep my views to myself), he told me that my friend had apparently gone and read parts of ISL and then shared his views with other ward members, apparently telling them that I was the original source of his information. A woman in the ward (I don't know if she heard directly from him or through someone else) got very irate and tattled to the Bishop that I was saying rude things about Joseph Smith and polygamy, and it snowballed from there.

The SP tried to convince me that it was not necessary to dig into the "mysteries" and that a simple faith would suffice. It sufficed for him--he didn't need to know, didn't want to know, the nitty gitty. As his coup de grace he left me with a dire warning, BY supposedly once said something like, "If you knew what I knew, you'd apostatize from the church."

At this point, I stood up, and said, "I guess that's the difference between you and me, I'm not afraid of the truth." At which point I walked out of his office without waiting to be dismissed.

Memo to DCP, Yes, you do need to get out more. You never hear of this in all your immense travels, but you hear it all the time on these boards from hundreds of people who have experienced it. Yet, it requires the confirmation from some poor peasant women in a third world country to confirm it?

I've been to more places than DCP (50+ countries and counting), and in many prior to my departure, I mingled with the Saints. I never heard talk of this either, but then, the people I largely interacted with were relatively poor and unlettered and unlikely to ever log onto the FARMS website. Besides, in a culture in which appearance is everything, and public expressions of doubt invoke social censure, it is highly doubtful that the rank and file members in foreign countries are going to be sharing their innermost thoughts and doubts with a roving Gringo professor who blasts in for a bit and then blasts out again.

I sometime wonder on which planet the internet Mormons have been living all these years.
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."
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Post by _Tarski »

KimberlyAnn wrote:
beastie wrote:Wow. I guess the missionaries who advised me against reading "anti Mormon literature" because the devil would work really hard to get me to change my mind about baptism, and my family members who kept telling me not to read anti Mormon literature, and my own desire to avoid anti Mormon literature was nothing more than the product of our active imaginations.


HA! I was told by my Bishop not to read McConkie's Mormon Doctrine. It wasn't faith promoting, I guess.

Also, when I attempted to have him read an article I pulled off SHIELDS, the Bishop steadfastly refused to look at it, let alone read it, because he felt it was anti-Mormon literature! It was comical - he was in my living room and touched the article like it was contaminated and then placed it, FACE DOWN, on the end table! I'm cracking up just thinking about it.


That is funny!
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Re: MAD thread: Daniel Peterson Agrees That Church Presents

Post by _SatanWasSetUp »

beastie wrote:What I think is particularly funny is the protest that the church just doesn't have TIME to deal with these issues in formal meetings.

Juliann:

I think the whine is that these things are not taught in Sunday School on a rotating basis, we could have a year on the Kinderhook Plates, a year on Polygamy, a year on peepstones and a year on Marriott hotels.


First, a moment of appreciation for Juliann's well-known sensitivity and compassion.

Second, this just made me laugh out loud. Church meetings consist of repeating the same lessons over and over and over and over and over and over and over. (hence creating the Mormon male tradition of leaning forward, putting heads in hands as if deep in thought, to nap)

I guarantee you, based on my experience with LDS meetings, that the LDS church could take one meeting a month to deal with controversies, and still have plenty of time to repeat the other lessons over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over..........


That's funny Beastie because it's true. I remember when this point hit home to me one Sunday out of the blue. It was gospel doctrine class and the teacher started the lesson, it was about the plan of salvation, and early on she asked what the three degrees of heaven are and every single hand in the class went up. It suddenly hit me that every single person in that class already knew the lesson, and could probably teach it. We've all been taught this lesson countless times, and it made me wonder when the church was going to get any new material.
"We of this Church do not rely on any man-made statement concerning the nature of Deity. Our knowledge comes directly from the personal experience of Joseph Smith." - Gordon B. Hinckley

"It's wrong to criticize leaders of the Mormon Church even if the criticism is true." - Dallin H. Oaks
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Post by _beastie »

Another interesting comment from a poster named maidservant:

I must say, that I do agree that the anti-mormon "stuff" I have read is not information. It is pain pouring out of a soul. It is a contentious spirit to cause me to pity who is caught hold of it. Many of the so-called arguments, and lack of an ability to absorb a response, and one source of the pain, is the inability of the person giving the anti-mormon argument to accept paradoxes (sigh) which is a skill one needs to 1) enjoy godly knowledge of any sort; and 2) survive on the planet.


Heaven's no, anti-mormon "stuff" doesn't contain information. It's just weeping, wailing, and whining.

Which is why, of course, many LDS scholars soon learned to rely on the Tanners for sources prior to the church allowing these sources to be more widely used. Cuz, you know, LDS scholars need weeping, wailing, and whining, to do their own research.

Sigh. These poor people, who obviously aren't going to be able to survive on the planet if they can't accept, for example, that the vehicle of revelation is so imperfect to result in sincere past prophets making statements they believed were inspired, only for later generations to disregard as nothing but the prophet's personal opinion, and yet is still a reliable enough vehicle for people like maidservant to be certain that the church is true.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
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Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Jason Bourne: "I am amazed Peterson claims that nobody tell people to avoid anti and critical material."

I guess it won't matter to anybody here that I never actually said that?

I was careful to say what I said, and I said it because I meant it. I didn't say what I didn't say, and I didn't say it because I didn't intend to say it.

It's impossible to have any kind of serious conversation with people who insist on supplying both sides of the discussion. Such behavior might justly be termed Bachmanism.

The claim was made that all or virtually all bishops and stake presidents constantly harangue members with demands that they not read anti-Mormon materials. My response, that I've never heard such a "harangue" (nor, indeed, any statement on the subject at all) from any bishop or stake president I've ever known, was not designed to demonstrate that no Church leader has ever, anywhere, said anything of the kind, but, rather, to suggest that the haranguing may not be quite so universal and constant as was claimed.

A simple course in elementary logic should suffice.

P.S. -- As always, I defer to Guy Sajer's fervent conviction that he is, in all respects, my superior. Although he knows, and can know, little about the extent of my travels, international residences, etc. -- quick quiz: what was my last international trip? what countries will I visit next month? -- there can be no doubt that he has me beat in that regard, too. (Elementary logic would suggest that, if one wants to compare x and y, it isn't enough merely to know x. But who needs logic when an unusually strong sense of self-confidence will do?)
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