MAD thread: Daniel Peterson Agrees That Church Presents...

[_Doctor Steuss]

Honestly, the idea that we weren't told to avoid critical literature puzzles me...

The thing that really puzzles me about that "counsel" is that there is canonized scripture in the D&C that commands the direct opposite..

[_beastie]

Two things:

The thing that really puzzles me about that "counsel" is that there is canonized scripture in the D&C that commands the direct opposite..

That's for an appointed counsel, not the general body of the church. Leaders often seem to portray a patronizing attitude that members just 'aren't ready' for the "other" church history.

And second - I think that in the early days of the church members were generally much more confident about being able to defend the faith against criticisms. As history and "controversies" proceeded, and as events and scientific exploration continue to provide more fodder for critics of the church, I think that confidence has receded.

[_guy sajer]

Simultaneously clueless and yet supremely confident in your capacity to judge.

How do you two manage it?

Fortunately for you, you're playing to an audience strongly disposed to sympathy for your silliness.

Zzzzzzzz.

Incidentally, Guy Sajer, your departure from academia is still causing shock waves around the world, and it's doubtful that global scholarship will ever recover. However, we stagger forward, disheartened but determined.

As a matter of fact, I don't agree that article publication in journals is "the gold standard." It's a standard, but there are others. (Are you seriously saying that articles are worth more than books? No, you must be joking.) In any event, whatever the "gold standard" may or may not be, I've been intensely focused for some years on founding, directing, and editing the dual-language Islamic Translation Series, Eastern Christian Texts series, and Medical Works of Moses Maimonides subseries, as well as the monolingual Library of the Christian East. After a slow and laborious start, the publications in those series continue to mount at an ever-increasing pace. If they ended up being my only contribution to scholarship, I would still feel satisfied at the end of my career, even if your Lordship sniffs at them. But they're not. And there's considerably more in the works.

No Dan, I assume that that audience here possesses the intelligence to make their own judgments.

After 13 years in academics, I am indeed competent to judge (in general) academic achievements. And frankly, yours is unimpressive.

I'm not sure why I need to explain to you the difference between peer-reviewed journals and books. Again, Dan, are you sole author of the book, editor, or contributor? It makes a huge difference. A sole-authored book is one thing (depending on a good deal), but an editorship, or contribution are other things quite different. I’m not joking. The joke is that someone with the time you’ve logged in academics can’t quite grasp that there’s a difference or why.

And yes, peer reviewed pubs are the gold standard. There are exceptions, of course, but there's a difference in the review process and standards/context for books and peer-reviewed articles. Plus, of course there are other standards, is that not implied by the term "gold standard?" "Gold" does not equal "only."

The truth is, Dan, had you started your career at even a mid-range university with reasonable publication expectations, they would have tossed your backside out the door decades ago.

I don't "sniff" at your achievements. I am happy to recognize them for what they are; the problem is that you are claiming more for yourself than your record justifies, and you use it, I believe, to bestow a credibility so that when you make pretentious-sounding arguments in defense of fairy tales, serial liars and adulterers, and other ethical abominations, the faithful can comfort themselves, "why, he's a great scholar, he must know what he's talking about," or something like that. You accept adulation and praise that you have not earned, because your lickspittle crowd over at MADD doesn’t know better.

Dan, I’ve asked several times now, why no peer-reviewed publications?

Perhaps if you spent less time writing fluff pieces for Mormon audiences, spending hours and hours writing long-winded, pretentious, and numerous posts on internet discussion boards, or devoting so much time apologizing for the religious equivalent of Bigfoot, you might have actually managed 1 peer-reviewed publication after a couple of decades.

[_wenglund]

The reason I dug up the quotes was that some people on another board told me that no church leaders had ever taught any such thing.

Nor have they ever taught that Native Americans are direct descendants of "Father Lehi" or that the real Hill Cumorah is in Western New York.

Nor have they ever said anthing about polygamy in the last 100 years.

Gee...putting words into people's mouth is fun.

Do you suppose I might get better at constructing straw men were I to some day publish in a peer-reviewed journal. ;-)

by the way, as a former Western New Yorker (grad school at U of Rochester), Palmyra is not Upstate New York, but Western New York.

Perhaps, then, you might want to inform the following online resources that they are wrong in thinking that Upstate NY also legitimately refers to the area of New York State that is upstate from the New York City metro area: Wikipedia, the Brookings Institute, the Upstate NY Chapter of the American Planning Association (community planning organization), the Association of Law Libraries of Upstate New York (including the law library in Rochester), the Upstate New York Chapter of the Better Business Bureau (which includes the Rochester Region). I could go on for some time, but hopefully I have made my point.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Guest]

Guy Sajer, I feel no obligation to justify or explain my academic performance to you, and couldn't care less about your opinion of it -- even if I thought that you knew enough about it to judge it (which I don't).

My superiors appear to be satisfied (no no, not you; I mean my bosses at the University); I have good friends at universities throughout North America, in Europe, and the Near East who don't seem to giggle at me, at least when I'm there; my projects are currently being funded by, among others, the Library of Congress -- if you're really interested, somewhere on the LoC site there's still videotape of a conference hosted there in honor of one of my publication series (listen, especially, to the opening comments of Prosser Gifford, the Library's deputy director) -- and the Kuwait Foundation for the Advancement of Science; I've got several personal projects underway; and, although there are plenty of other things that I want to get to, I'm pretty satisfied.

In the meantime, I have a book manuscript to finish before I leave for Europe on 6 September. Feel free to denigrate what I do. Your opinion carries no weight with me.

[_guy sajer]

Geez Wade, you've taken something meant to be a humorous, meaningless, throw away line and turned into someting much bigger than it is. It was not intended to be any kind of assertion of anything important, just a fun way for those of us from the Western part of New York to distinguish ourselves a bit more from the generic Up-State.

Who am I to dispute Wikipedia, I can only tell you that when we lived in Rochester, we (us and our circle of acquaintances) considered oursevles Western New Yorkers, not Up-Staters.

If you want to demonstrate your superior intellect, might I suggest you choose a worthier target?

By the way, I'm not sure I understand your first comments. I don't see any strawmen.

[_beastie]

Ok, come on, Guy, let Wade have his small moment of victory. They are so hard won.

[_wenglund]

Geez Wade, you've taken something meant to be a humorous, meaningless, throw away line and turned into someting much bigger than it is. It was not intended to be any kind of assertion of anything important, just a fun way for those of us from the Western part of New York to distinguish ourselves a bit more from the generic Up-State.

Who am I to dispute Wikipedia, I can only tell you that when we lived in Rochester, we (us and our circle of acquaintances) considered oursevles Western New Yorkers, not Up-Staters.

If you want to demonstrate your superior intellect, might I suggest you choose a worthier target?

My intent wasn't to demonstrate my superior intellect (please don't project). Rather, my intent was simply and humorously to bear out what you just said about your humor in this case being meaningless and throw-away. ;-)

By the way, I'm not sure I understand your first comments. I don't see any strawmen.

I didn't think that you would. That, to me, is the humor of it. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_wenglund]

Ok, come on, Guy, let Wade have his small moment of victory. They are so hard won.

...particularly since, unlike for some, victory and winning are not things I care about nor do I find it useful to direct my energies thereto.

On the other hand, like Dennis Prager, I like to pursue clarity and those things which will heal, uplift, and edify humanity, though not at all for the purpose of self-aggrandizement.

To each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_KimberlyAnn]

I didn't think that you would. That, to me, is the humor of it. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Glad you find yourself funny. At least you entertain yourself if not the rest of us.

KA