DiscussMormonism.com

I was just lying in bed again, and happened to be thinking of arguments about Mormonism, not because I think about it all the time (I don't), but because this site happened to be the last thing I checked before going to bed, and I had it on my mind. It got me thinking about a paper I just started writing, which I intend eventually to give out to my family members so that they understand what I now believe, and why, and what I now disbelieve, and why.

The whole Noah's Ark thing, along with the Fall of Adam stuff, factor strongly into my thinking, and I was imagining how I will write about this in my paper to my family. Here's kinda how this whole thing will go, I think.

There are a zillion different belief systems in the world. Each one is a piece of straw in a giant haystack. The hypothetical "One and Only True" religion is like a needle in this haystack. We all know how hard it is, as the saying goes, to find a needle in a haystack. How much more so when the needle actually looks like a piece of straw?

So here we go about, searching through this haystack, and someone walks along and sees us searching, and asks us what we're searching for. A needle, we reply. Hmm, good luck with that, the observer says. Then, out of curiousity, they ask how big it is. About as big as a piece of straw. What color is it? The color of straw. What shape is it? It's the shape of a typical piece of straw.

Pardon the observer if they walk away scratching their heads in confusion, thinking we must be crazy to imagine there's a needle in that haystack, that just so happens to look like a piece of straw, but hey, it's not straw, it's really a needle.

How is the LDS church like a needle that looks like a piece of straw? It's in all of the things we talk about on boards like this, where the inevitable answer is that some past (or current) teaching in the LDS church is reduced to just being some ignorant man's personal opinion, just like all the other, non-true churches out there.

So, the LDS church teaches a global, catastrophic Flood a few thousand years ago, but that's actually just mythology? Hmm, manmade doctrine, just like all the other pieces of straw, I mean churches.

So, the LDS church teaches that nothing died before Adam fell a few thousand years ago, but that's actually convincingly contradicted by abundant physical evidence? Hmm, manmade doctrine, just like all the other pieces of straw, I mean churches.

So, the LDS church banned blacks based on some 18th century institutional racism against blacks? Hmm, manmade doctrine, just like all the other pieces of straw, I mean churches.

The Book of Abraham apologetics are laughably transparent as well, giving further evidence to the non-indoctrinated of the church's obvious manmadeness. Straw.

Joseph Smith's having told his followers he received knowledge from God by gazing at a magic rock in his hat is also laughably transparent to the non-indoctrinated. It is, to the non-indoctrinated, obvious straw, even if to the believer it somehow has the appearance of a thin metal needle.

Joseph Smith's bedding of other men's wives, and many a young single woman, under the guise of farcical, secret, extra-legal "marriage" ceremonies, is another obvious symptom, to the outsider looking in, that the LDS church is really just straw, like all the other pieces in the stack.

All the other churches in the world happen not to be true, according to LDS beliefs. So what does it say about the LDS church that so much that the LDS believe is also not true? What does it say about the LDS church when it's Prophets, Seers, and Revelators pronounce on so many topics and are subsequently shown obviously to have been wrong about it? How is the LDS prophet anymore credible than, say, the Pope? Or the Archbishop of Canterbury? Or the Dalai Lama?

In the end, it becomes obvious to the non-indoctrinated observer that there is no needle in that haystack, just straw. The LDS church is just one more piece of straw in the giant haystack.

Excellent! But you do know that the LDS response will be that the personal witness of the HG is what makes the needle a needle. Of course, those outside the "circle", where they are all gazing intensely at one another and reinforcing this belief, know that nonLDS also have their versions of the witness of the HG, although the terminology may differ. We know that individuals of other belief systems have equally convincing spiritual events as Mormons. But LDS are convinced that their experience is qualitatively different than what other believers experience. It's that element of hubris necessary for the belief in the "one true".

Nice Seth...

In addition to the response Beastie mentioned is the idea that none of that matters because the LDS church has the true priesthood, power of God, authority to act in God's name, restored to the Earth.

Now, to the non-indoctrinated this makes no sense whatsoever but to believers, regardless of any truth claims, they believe they have something the rest of humankind does not.

It makes no difference if this power is powerless, or if the spiritual experiences are no different to those in the rest of the world who claim to experience the divine.

It also makes no difference if the doctrine/teachings are completely wrong... it just doesn't matter in the least. It is the power of God that makes the church true.

It also makes no difference if what is claimed to be restored has no evidence whatsoever of having ever existed. If it is claimed to be restored then it must have been here.

It also makes no difference if the church leaders are horrible men or nice men... it matters not. God's power can work though any man He chooses or who has the priesthood.

:-)

~dancer~

Excellent points as usual, Sethbag.

As I've stated before, Internet Mormons have diluted the role and meaning of "prophet" to the point that a church with prophets is really no better off than a church without prophets.

Nice metaphor, Sethbag, especially when you consider the story of the three little pigs.

It's just not a good idea to build your reality into a house of straw. Inevitably, someone will come along and easily blow it away.

Just because no discussion should consist of one side only I will add an alternative interpretation of the haystack image.

I think that the idea of one true church ends up occulding the actual valuable substance in the idea church, communities helping each other in faith. Now I realize that you are not believing faith is valid. I am just pointing out that there is at least a logical possiblity that if did have meaning then looking for a one true church might cause one to miss the meaning dispersed throughout the alternatives. It could be like missing the forest for the trees,or missing the hay for the straw.

I see the fit of Seth's "straw/needle" analogy being conditioned upon perspective. Consider the fact that, from the distance of 100 or more feet, using just eyesight, the haystack may be visible, but not the individual straws. However, at 10 feet, the straws become visible, but look very much alike. Up close, and more particularly when viewed under a microscope at low magnification, the straws may be easily distinguished by a variety of characteristics and attributes. Under very high magnification, though, the straws begin to again look alike (as cells or atoms).

So, while it is true that from certain perspectives (i.e. levels at which the various churches are being considered), it may appear that the needle of the "only true Chruch" is little different from the straws of other religiouns, whereas from other perspectives it may be seen as quite different.

The point being, then: finding the right perspective is important if one wishes to find the needle in the haystack.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

If I were a TBM, I would say, "Yes, the straw shaped needle may be hard to find, but oh the joy when you do find it!!"

Or, "Even though the needle looks like piece of hay, it is, indeed, still a needle. A subtle, yet very important distinction. The LDS church does have many attributes of other churches, yet we have a strength that none of them have. They are all flimsy as straw where we are strong as steel! (Or whatever they make needles out of)."

I think I missed my calling as an apologist...