Nephi wrote:Therefore a testimony of anything (regardless) is not inherently a lie, but merely what one uses to support their belief in something that is highly opinionated.
I would go further and say a testimony within Mormonism is simply an opinion, and I guess opinions aren't lies. The confusion comes when Mormons say they "know" the church is true. To Mormons, saying that they "know" really means they "believe" the church is true. It's the wording that makes it sound like a lie.
The difference between knowing and believing is only where one sets the standard of proof.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
Some Schmo wrote:The people who say "I know the church is true" are not expressing an opinion. They do not consider it an opinion. They are expressing what they think is a fact. And although they do not think they are lying, obviously, they are.
You have to be an idiot Mormon apologist (hmmmm... "idiot Mormon apologist"... sorry for the redundancy) to think otherwise.
Kinda like your opinion that your wife loves you, right?
Huh?
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
Nephi wrote: Kinda like your opinion that your wife loves you, right?
Huh?
This is from that faith thread from last month. You don't KNOW your spouse loves you. You only have an opinion, and if you were to say you KNOW, that would be a lie, even though you might not realize its a lie.
Nephi wrote: This is from that faith thread from last month. You don't KNOW your spouse loves you. You only have an opinion, and if you were to say you KNOW, that would be a lie, even though you might not realize its a lie.
I knew what you were referring to; I was confused how your comment related to what I said. Thanks for clearing that up.
Here's the point, however... It is not a lie to express an opinion if everyone (including and especially the person with the opinion) is aware that it's just an opinion. It is a lie to assert a falsehood (whether it's an opinion or not) if you don't regard it an opinion.
It's really that simple.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
Nephi wrote: This is from that faith thread from last month. You don't KNOW your spouse loves you. You only have an opinion, and if you were to say you KNOW, that would be a lie, even though you might not realize its a lie.
I knew what you were referring to; I was confused how your comment related to what I said. Thanks for clearing that up.
Here's the point, however... It is not a lie to express an opinion if everyone (including and especially the person with the opinion) is aware that it's just an opinion. It is a lie to assert a falsehood (whether it's an opinion or not) if you don't regard it an opinion.
It's really that simple.
You don't see how the idea that going from an opinion of someone loving you to a fact over time is not similar to the same idea with the church? I don't see it quite as simple. If people in the church HONESTLY BELIEVE THE KNOW the church is true, then its not a lie, correct?
Nephi wrote:You don't see how the idea that going from an opinion of someone loving you to a fact over time is not similar to the same idea with the church? I don't see it quite as simple. If people in the church HONESTLY BELIEVE THE KNOW the church is true, then its not a lie, correct?
I believe you just restated George Costanza: "It's not a lie if you believe it."
A lie is a lie, no matter how many people believe it.
Nephi wrote:You don't see how the idea that going from an opinion of someone loving you to a fact over time is not similar to the same idea with the church? I don't see it quite as simple. If people in the church HONESTLY BELIEVE THE KNOW the church is true, then its not a lie, correct?
I believe you just restated George Costanza: "It's not a lie if you believe it."
A lie is a lie, no matter how many people believe it.
Then there are many things people lie about in life. I don't know that my children are mine. Its just an opinion. So to say that I know Mesa and Kepler are my children would be a lie, and any man who has not had a DNA test to prove their children theirs would also be lying.
Anyone who states that there are protons and neutrons who has not proven this through complex quantum math and/or some other concrete evidence of such particles would be lying to say that they KNOW that they exist. Anyone who has never been to space would be lying to say they know space exists (pictures and movies can easily be faked [see Star Wars]).
So to say "I know this church is true" isn't a lie just because someone doesn't believe them (which is what the couter-argument boils down to).
Nephi wrote: Then there are many things people lie about in life. I don't know that my children are mine. Its just an opinion. So to say that I know Mesa and Kepler are my children would be a lie, and any man who has not had a DNA test to prove their children theirs would also be lying.
Anyone who states that there are protons and neutrons who has not proven this through complex quantum math and/or some other concrete evidence of such particles would be lying to say that they KNOW that they exist. Anyone who has never been to space would be lying to say they know space exists (pictures and movies can easily be faked [see Star Wars]).
So to say "I know this church is true" isn't a lie just because someone doesn't believe them (which is what the couter-argument boils down to).
Dude, your ability too conflate non-analogous stuff is awesome to observe.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
Nephi wrote: Then there are many things people lie about in life. I don't know that my children are mine. Its just an opinion. So to say that I know Mesa and Kepler are my children would be a lie, and any man who has not had a DNA test to prove their children theirs would also be lying.
Anyone who states that there are protons and neutrons who has not proven this through complex quantum math and/or some other concrete evidence of such particles would be lying to say that they KNOW that they exist. Anyone who has never been to space would be lying to say they know space exists (pictures and movies can easily be faked [see Star Wars]).
So to say "I know this church is true" isn't a lie just because someone doesn't believe them (which is what the couter-argument boils down to).
Dude, your ability too conflate non-analogous stuff is awesome to observe.
Cool... I've noticed that when people are presented with analogies that defeat their arguments online they either say its reductio ad absurdum, or ad hominem, or some other logical fallacy, follow this by a general attack of the individual itself, and/or take what they use for support and point out the differences it has to the original argument.
In reality, any analogy will always share similarities and differences with the original argument, and the fact that differences can be seen doesn't automatically negate the analogy. I gave ideas that cannot be proven, and so they are (just like the argument at hand) opinions at best. They are based upon experiences, just like the argument at hand, but no solid proof is presented, or the evidence presented can easily be faked. I am sorry you think they are not analogous, but its fairly plain.