DiscussMormonism.com

I posted this on the other board, and I hope they don't shut it down.

I hope I'm not misunderstood, but I was thinking today that for church members, Mormonism is not just a faith, but it is a way of looking at the world. Every experience, it seems, is filtered through a gospel paradigm. We interpret events, large and small, as having gospel-related causes and effects. In short, our religious perspective becomes our reality.

I don't mean this in the sense that people are "blind" or "brainwashed," but I was thinking that for me, my belief in the church shaped my conception of reality. Thus, in some ways, to question that belief system is akin to questioning reality. It made me think that one of the reasons people are so quick to heap scorn on apostates is that we have, in effect, rejected reality. I think it also explains in part why so many exmormons become atheists or agnostics: we no longer trust in our ability to determine what is real.

What you're really talking about it the idea that perception is reality. Well, we know that perception isn't really "true" or "the absolute reality" but it is very real to the individual.

So in that sense, yes.

Runtu wrote:I posted this on the other board, and I hope they don't shut it down.

I hope I'm not misunderstood, but I was thinking today that for church members, Mormonism is not just a faith, but it is a way of looking at the world. Every experience, it seems, is filtered through a gospel paradigm. We interpret events, large and small, as having gospel-related causes and effects. In short, our religious perspective becomes our reality.

I don't mean this in the sense that people are "blind" or "brainwashed," but I was thinking that for me, my belief in the church shaped my conception of reality. Thus, in some ways, to question that belief system is akin to questioning reality. It made me think that one of the reasons people are so quick to heap scorn on apostates is that we have, in effect, rejected reality. I think it also explains in part why so many exmormons become atheists or agnostics: we no longer trust in our ability to determine what is real.

That's why "The Matrix" was such an eye-opening movie for me.

Absolutely. This was one of the hardest things for me when I discovered the truth.

I was BIC, and the Mormon religion was at the very core of my being. Every decision I made was somehow filtered through a subset of my own personal beliefs. Thinking that there is a God out there, protecting and guiding us puts some, if not all, of the burden of our choices on Him. When I lost this, it was one of the hardest things I had to go through. To use a tired, clichéd term, I had to re-invent myself. I couldn't rely on God to help me with my decisions. I was utterly alone.

I honestly believe that there are several aspects to a persons overall health. There is physical, mental, emotional and spiritual. The spiritual part of me had been completely torn down. I had to find a new way to fill that void without religion. Not only did I not receive any support from my family, but quite the opposite. I was lucky in that I wasn't shunned, but the love bombing was incessant. And, I'll admit, I was angry. Looking back, I think that was a big part of it. Rather than help me discover my new path, I was bombarded by my family with how stupid I was being for leaving the church and how I was jeopardizing my eternal family. Eventually, after much soul searching, I have been able to find peace. I gain spirituality through the beauty of every day life. I take it in small doses every day, not a firehose once a week at church.

Runtu wrote:I posted this on the other board, and I hope they don't shut it down.

I hope I'm not misunderstood, but I was thinking today that for church members, Mormonism is not just a faith, but it is a way of looking at the world. Every experience, it seems, is filtered through a gospel paradigm. We interpret events, large and small, as having gospel-related causes and effects. In short, our religious perspective becomes our reality.

I don't mean this in the sense that people are "blind" or "brainwashed," but I was thinking that for me, my belief in the church shaped my conception of reality. Thus, in some ways, to question that belief system is akin to questioning reality. It made me think that one of the reasons people are so quick to heap scorn on apostates is that we have, in effect, rejected reality. I think it also explains in part why so many exmormons become atheists or agnostics: we no longer trust in our ability to determine what is real.

To me, I stand convicted by the Spirit. I cannot deny the reality of God, His Son or the miracle of His Church. I cannot deny the many miracles witnessed in the lives of the humble. I cannot deny the success of the Church among the truly elect, and that God runs it. I have been a personal witness of miracles that defy discussion on an internet board.

I don't think most knowledgeable folks "heap scorn" on "apostates" who have rejected reality. What mystifies the true believer is that the "apostates" live to heap scorn upon and mock the believers. Look at you all. You waste your time with something you mock and sneer at. Why is that? I represent two major world religions in my profession, and I don't see that mocking and sneering and effort going on with former believers. The internet boards dedicated to former believers are lightly populated for these other religions.

And then, so much is done anonymously by those who mock and sneer. I just don't get that, especially and particularly those with one foot in the church. I don't see that as a positive character trait by any reasonable standard, spiritual or otherwise.

Really, now, Jesus can reclaim you. Consider the possibility of repenting and returning to the fold, and spending your time uplifting the Lord instead of contributing on the wrong side.

rcrocket

liz3564 wrote:
That's why "The Matrix" was such an eye-opening movie for me.

You actually admit to this?

I got teary-eyed when the alien bought it in Alien.

rcrocket

rcrocket wrote: To me, I stand convicted by the Spirit. I cannot deny the reality of God, His Son or the miracle of His Church. I cannot deny the many miracles witnessed in the lives of the humble. I cannot deny the success of the Church among the truly elect, and that God runs it. I have been a personal witness of miracles that defy discussion on an internet board.

I don't think most knowledgeable folks "heap scorn" on "apostates" who have rejected reality. What mystifies the true believer is that the "apostates" live to heap scorn upon and mock the believers. Look at you all. You waste your time with something you mock and sneer at. Why is that? I represent two major world religions in my profession, and I don't see that mocking and sneering and effort going on with former believers. The internet boards dedicated to former believers are lightly populated for these other religions.

And then, so much is done anonymously by those who mock and sneer. I just don't get that, especially and particularly those with one foot in the church. I don't see that as a positive character trait by any reasonable standard, spiritual or otherwise.

Really, now, Jesus can reclaim you. Consider the possibility of repenting and returning to the fold, and spending your time uplifting the Lord instead of contributing on the wrong side.

rcrocket

LOL... you think I "live to heap scorn upon and mock the believers?" That's pretty funny. It's these kinds of jokes that I come to this board for. It's the entertainment.

You want to attach so much importance to who's saying it rather than what's being said. I just don't get that. What difference does it make? Either the points stand on their own merits or they don't. You really think it matters who said something? Does it really affect whether it's true or not?

You're just the type of person the church is looking for. One who does not discern the weight of something based on its own merits, but rather by who made the assertion in the first place. Talk about a cult of personality. If that's how you want to live your life, that's up to you, but you shouldn't be surprised if people mock you for it.

by the way, it's the Mormons who are the apostates from reality. They've rejected reality for their "spirit" fantasy.

I have noticed that political leanings seem to have more effect on religion, than the other way around. The more conservative the politics, the more punitive they make God and the more harsh they like their religion.

So apparently politics shapes our reality as well.

moksha wrote:I have noticed that political leanings seem to have more effect on religion, than the other way around. The more conservative the politics, the more punitive they make God and the more harsh they like their religion.

So apparently politics shapes our reality as well.

I don't agree. I am a Democrat although my libertarianism confuses my Demo friends. But, my stance on immigration, women's rights, the war, Muslims, and drug and social policy aligns with the Democrats, so there I am.

And as to Schmo's derision of my ability to think critically, I am really amazed at how many of you just make an a priori statement that good Latter-day Saints are unable to think critically. Of course, there isn't any empirical evidence for your assertion. Nor could there be.

My own shockingly anecdotal evidence on this board is that the largest group of denizens here is composed of persons not well-educated and not deeply read -- certainly not as educated and deeply read as my faithful friends in the Church who are wildly successful in their families and careers, as well as their ability to serve the underserved. My goodness, you have a frequent critic of me on this board who admits how profoundly her life was changed by watching the Matrix. I'll bet if you look on her bookshelf you're not going to see Paradise Lost, Inferno, Shakespeare, Beowulf, Tolstoy or Dickens. Or the works of humanists and atheists, such as Schweitzer, Durant, Gibbons or Russell.

There are certainly articulate and well-read exceptions to my observations about this Board, and to that I will grudgingly admit. But, by and large, and in the main, I question the intellectualism of the heaviest posters here.

rcrocket (the "smug")

rcrocket wrote:To me, I stand convicted by the Spirit. I cannot deny the reality of God, His Son or the miracle of His Church. I cannot deny the many miracles witnessed in the lives of the humble. I cannot deny the success of the Church among the truly elect, and that God runs it. I have been a personal witness of miracles that defy discussion on an internet board.

I can't quibble with that.

I don't think most knowledgeable folks "heap scorn" on "apostates" who have rejected reality. What mystifies the true believer is that the "apostates" live to heap scorn upon and mock the believers. Look at you all. You waste your time with something you mock and sneer at. Why is that? I represent two major world religions in my profession, and I don't see that mocking and sneering and effort going on with former believers. The internet boards dedicated to former believers are lightly populated for these other religions.

I've had plenty of scorn heaped on me. Good heavens, look at the way we're derided for being black and white thinkers and stuck in Enlightenment philosophy, not to mention the notion that we're really just people who want to sin, so we need an excuse. And you don't see sneering from the apologists? Are you kidding?

And then, so much is done anonymously by those who mock and sneer. I just don't get that, especially and particularly those with one foot in the church. I don't see that as a positive character trait by any reasonable standard, spiritual or otherwise.

I figure that people find their way through life the best they can. Some people cope with pain with humor. As long as it's not malicious, I don't mind people poking fun at us or at believers. Heck, you admitted to poking fun at me just the other day.

Really, now, Jesus can reclaim you. Consider the possibility of repenting and returning to the fold, and spending your time uplifting the Lord instead of contributing on the wrong side.

rcrocket

Bob, I figure that it's uplifting to people to discuss what is real and true. I'm willing to let God reclaim me, if He wants me. In the meantime, I try to follow my conscience. That's the best I can do.

As for being well-read, I've read everything on your little list. For the past couple of years I've been alternating between classic fiction and nonfiction. But that doesn't make me any smarter or more of a thinking, feeling person because I've read. Mocking and sneering because someone found a film moving and profound is hardly contributing on the "right" side.