Our "Agency", according to the Mormon view of the world gives us the choice to live with god by doing exactly what the Mormon church mandates or be cast out from the presence of god. that's what is so "beautiful" about the plan of salvation to Mormons.
Its the henry ford approach to religion. You can believe anything you want...as long as its Mormonism.
Mormon Free Agency is neither free nor gives us agency. Ultimately doublespeak and contradictory philosophies rule the Mormon roost but this is par for the course.
There is no free will in Mormonism
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_Mercury
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 5545
- Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:14 pm
There is no free will in Mormonism
And crawling on the planet's face
Some insects called the human race
Lost in time
And lost in space...and meaning
Some insects called the human race
Lost in time
And lost in space...and meaning
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_Nephi
Re: There is no free will in Mormonism
Mercury wrote:Our "Agency", according to the Mormon view of the world gives us the choice to live with god by doing exactly what the Mormon church mandates or be cast out from the presence of god. that's what is so "beautiful" about the plan of salvation to Mormons.
Its the henry ford approach to religion. You can believe anything you want...as long as its Mormonism.
Mormon Free Agency is neither free nor gives us agency. Ultimately doublespeak and contradictory philosophies rule the Mormon roost but this is par for the course.
So, you are suggesting that by living all the laws given by the LDS, one gives up their free agency?
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_SatanWasSetUp
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 1183
- Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2007 2:40 pm
The difference between Mormons "do what we tell you or suffer the consequences" plan, which they call agency, and Satan's plan, is Satan would force you to do it in some way that you can't really control. I'm not exactly sure how it would work, but I guess we would have just been robots taking orders from satan.
In Mormonism, they accept that people have free will, we are born with brains and the ability to make choices, called agency. However, the term "free agency" is wrong, and has been pointed out by GAs recently. There is no such thing as "free agency", just "agency", which is the ability to choose. If you don't make the correct choices, the ones the leaders want you to make, you are totally screwed. This is Mormon agency. Agency in Mormonism is like elections in the old USSR. You have the ability to choose, but there is only one correct choice.
In Mormonism, they accept that people have free will, we are born with brains and the ability to make choices, called agency. However, the term "free agency" is wrong, and has been pointed out by GAs recently. There is no such thing as "free agency", just "agency", which is the ability to choose. If you don't make the correct choices, the ones the leaders want you to make, you are totally screwed. This is Mormon agency. Agency in Mormonism is like elections in the old USSR. You have the ability to choose, but there is only one correct choice.
"We of this Church do not rely on any man-made statement concerning the nature of Deity. Our knowledge comes directly from the personal experience of Joseph Smith." - Gordon B. Hinckley
"It's wrong to criticize leaders of the Mormon Church even if the criticism is true." - Dallin H. Oaks
"It's wrong to criticize leaders of the Mormon Church even if the criticism is true." - Dallin H. Oaks
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_Nephi
SatanWasSetUp wrote:The difference between Mormons "do what we tell you or suffer the consequences" plan, which they call agency, and Satan's plan, is Satan would force you to do it in some way that you can't really control. I'm not exactly sure how it would work, but I guess we would have just been robots taking orders from satan.
In Mormonism, they accept that people have free will, we are born with brains and the ability to make choices, called agency. However, the term "free agency" is wrong, and has been pointed out by GAs recently. There is no such thing as "free agency", just "agency", which is the ability to choose. If you don't make the correct choices, the ones the leaders want you to make, you are totally screwed. This is Mormon agency. Agency in Mormonism is like elections in the old USSR. You have the ability to choose, but there is only one correct choice.
Heroin addiction is a prime example of satan taking away your free agency. Once hooked, you HAVE to have it. There is no choice.
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_Runtu
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 16721
- Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:06 am
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_Infymus
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 1584
- Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 7:10 pm
Agency in Mormonism does not exist and Mormons cannot fathom it.
The Mormon God demands complete obedience. He claims that by loosing yourself in him, you gain yourself.
Free Agency does not exist. Free agency is something that Mormons dangle out at you saying that you have free choice in everything you do. They say that you can choose your actions but you cannot choose your consequences. And they say it to you as if it's an end-all phrase. As if by saying it the conversation is over, and there is nothing left to say.
The Book of Mormon states that when you die all spirits are taken "home to that God which gave them life." This is not true. It is contradicted by modern Mormon revelation wherein they state that all spirits go to the spirit Prison. Mormons, who have remained faithful in their endeavors and have "Endured To The End" as they state it, go to the Spirit Paradise. Those who did not keep their second estate, or those who have not yet accepted the Gospel of Jesus Christ, go to the spirit prison. Mormons believe that both the spirit prison and the spirit paradise are on the earth now as it stands in a kind of phase-shifted "veiled" reality. That way both can exist at the same time due to some miraculous power that is wrought by God.
Once in the spirit prison, the Gospel of Jesus Christ is taught to those contained therein. If they accept the Gospel, they are allowed out of prison and released into paradise. If they do not accept, they are held in prison until Christ comes forth and judges all at the last day. This is, of course, after Christ has reigned on the earth for 1000 years. So these people, these poor souls, will sit in prison until the second coming of Christ, and then spend an additional 1000 years in prison. At the end of that time frame, the earth shall be "rolled as a scroll" and renewed to its paradisaical glory and turned into the Celestial Kingdom.
At the time of judgment, the Doctrine and Covenants of the Mormon Church state that all knees shall bend and accept that Jesus Christ is God. There will be no persons who will not bow. All men will be forced by God to kneel before him and accept that he is. Agency does not play a part in this scenario. Neither does agency play a part in the scenario of being locked in a prison never to be allowed out unless one accepts the plan of salvation. Agency does not exist in this condition. There is no other choice. I was watching Harry Potter again the other day and when Voldemort forced Harry Potter to bow before him, I thought to myself, jeeze, that is what the Mormon God will do - because he CAN.
Mormons state that the choice is that you would stay in that prison until judgment time - in which you will be forced to bend knee and worship God. And then you will be placed in a kingdom - definitely not the Celestial Kingdom - but some other kingdom that is "set aside for that which is filthy" because the Kingdom of God is not filthy.
Each Mormon God exists within an expansive "bubble" in the universe that has infinite expansive capabilities. Each Mormon God that exists (a Mormon who becomes a God with all his wives) creates a new "bubble" in the universe and continues to expand within it. If we look at the Mormon universe as a whole, we would look at and find an infinite number of bubbles for each "eternity to eternity" that each said Mormon God (and his wives) have used to create, have billions of spirit babies and lead them to "salvation" or to their own "destruction" (as they so call it). Think about it - an infinite number of these.
What we would find if we examined this closely, is that we would find an infinite number of 1st and 2nd degree kingdoms full of those persons who did not transpire to the level of the Celestial kingdom for which they could continue on as god's themselves. Therefore we would find a number of souls that could not be calculated in numbers that are in states of prisons where they cannot move from kingdom to kingdom. This is an awful state. Mormonism accepts this state because they claim either these people merited this state of existence, or, these people were complacent and they choose to be in these kingdoms for all time and eternity - not just one bubble of eternity but all bubbles of eternity henceforth and forever. I am not even taking into account the number tossed away into prisons called "Outer Darkness".
It is an atrocious fact that the Mormon God creates prisons in order to house those who are in disagreement with him. Because a person, who God claims is a son or daughter, a literal offspring of God, does not agree with God, that God locks that son or daughter away forever and ever. He claims that where he is, they cannot come. This flies in the face of reason and love and the statement that God has unconditional love.
Mormons would argue that this is correct and that what we have chosen to do in the flesh merits our placement in the heavens. What Mormonism does not take into account is the fact that we made those decisions in bodies that are not perfect. If we take Mormonism into account, our bodies are flesh and blood as a tabernacle or "temple" surrounding our spirits. When we leave this world and return to the spirit prison, we are no longer subject to the flesh and therefore can make decisions unhindered by the flesh. Even so, we are judged by how we acted in the flesh with half our minds veiled rather than being judged while we had full understanding.
We are coerced into falling on our knees and obeying God. There is no choice. There is no door in the "bubble" that lets us walk outside. The only choice Mormonism gives us is to follow God or he claims we are followers Satan. There is nothing behind door number three. THERE IS NO CHOICE. Follow the Mormon God, or die a spiritual death. Obey, Obey, Obey, Obey.
I spent a great many years pondering this and weighing the Plan of Salvation to the plan presented by Lucifer, the brother of Christ - and ultimately our brother. I found that I could not agree with either plan. Satan, a plan of compulsion, or Christ, a plan that ultimately lead down the same path. Why did I have to be one of the many who was brought before God, either on the right or left hand of Christ? Why would I want to be on his right side, showing that I had been totally obedient to him, or on his left, and be numbered among one ones he was "ashamed" to own. Ashamed? My brother owns me and furthermore would be ashamed of me? My brother is bringing me before God - who ultimately is going to stick me in a prison he calls a Kingdom?
Mormons have this perception that the lower kingdoms including outer darkness will have some kind of order and learning to them. That they are not really "prisons", but are beautiful kingdoms that if we could see them now in our mortal flesh, we'd kill ourselves to get there. I completely disagree with that. A prison is a prison no matter which way you look at it. Take this scenario for a moment. The lowest kingdom of the Mormon God is the size of the earth. You didn't obey correctly so you are placed on it. You start walking. You don't have to eat, sleep, rest, so you just keep walking. How long will it take before there is not one inch of ground you have not crossed? 100 years? 1000 years? Ok, now criss-cross the earth again a few thousand more times. How long will it be before you finally just sit down, look up and realize you will never, ever EVER get out.
The fictional James T. Kirk said it appropriately to his alien captors. It doesn't matter how beautiful the cage is, it is still a cage.
I argued with my Bishop and Stake President over the fact that the Mormon God's plan of salvation was ultimately a plan of compulsion.
I got the standard run around that I chose my destiny in the pre-existence and I'm here on earth now because I chose correctly. I was told that I was “looking beyond the mark” and that all of the answers were not readily available. In essence, I got my first “you must have milk before meat” b***s***. I was told to stop studying the gospel and to “put those questions on the shelf for later”, and to pay, pray and obey.
I couldn't put it down. I was disgusted that I had “thought” I had found the true church, and yet, God's plan was flawed - it did not provide anyone with agency and the plan contained massive prisons to house those who were in disagreement with him. And what amazed me was that no other Mormon could see this. They could not use the term "prison", it was a "kingdom" or "heaven", and that I just didn't understand.
I began to see quite clearly why there was a war in heaven. I didn't believe the Mormon tale that Satan has “deceived” the spirit children into fighting against God - I believed that the war in heaven was truly based on the poorly formulated plan of salvation and how it would ultimately lead to the incarceration of billions of souls.
Ultimately what led me out of the Mormon Church was direct defiance to God. I turned my back on him because I refused to accept his plan any longer. I figured that I would be one of those who in the end would battle God for the defense and justice of His children. We needed to be free - free of a God who imprisoned anyone who did not wish to “kiss his ass” so to say.
I began to say, that if God judges all men, who judges God? When I asked this of other TBM friends I was scoffed at. Nobody had ever considered the possibility that God himself should be judged. The very thought was heresy.
Ultimately after I had my name removed I joined the ex-Mormon movement and began to unravel Mormonism piece by piece. Eventually I came to the conclusion that Mormonism was an absolute and complete fraud - perpetrated by a convicted criminal, a polygamist, polyandrous - and a pedophile - one Joseph Smith Jr.
That is when it all began to make sense - the plan of salvation was just a plan neatly created by a cultish organization, packaged with a big red ribbon and sold to all potential converts as a “nice” little plan whereby all mankind could be saved.
It's horse manure in a bowl covered with sugar and syrup, and I ate it for years until I got through the layers and found the flaws within it.
The Mormon God demands complete obedience. He claims that by loosing yourself in him, you gain yourself.
Free Agency does not exist. Free agency is something that Mormons dangle out at you saying that you have free choice in everything you do. They say that you can choose your actions but you cannot choose your consequences. And they say it to you as if it's an end-all phrase. As if by saying it the conversation is over, and there is nothing left to say.
The Book of Mormon states that when you die all spirits are taken "home to that God which gave them life." This is not true. It is contradicted by modern Mormon revelation wherein they state that all spirits go to the spirit Prison. Mormons, who have remained faithful in their endeavors and have "Endured To The End" as they state it, go to the Spirit Paradise. Those who did not keep their second estate, or those who have not yet accepted the Gospel of Jesus Christ, go to the spirit prison. Mormons believe that both the spirit prison and the spirit paradise are on the earth now as it stands in a kind of phase-shifted "veiled" reality. That way both can exist at the same time due to some miraculous power that is wrought by God.
Once in the spirit prison, the Gospel of Jesus Christ is taught to those contained therein. If they accept the Gospel, they are allowed out of prison and released into paradise. If they do not accept, they are held in prison until Christ comes forth and judges all at the last day. This is, of course, after Christ has reigned on the earth for 1000 years. So these people, these poor souls, will sit in prison until the second coming of Christ, and then spend an additional 1000 years in prison. At the end of that time frame, the earth shall be "rolled as a scroll" and renewed to its paradisaical glory and turned into the Celestial Kingdom.
At the time of judgment, the Doctrine and Covenants of the Mormon Church state that all knees shall bend and accept that Jesus Christ is God. There will be no persons who will not bow. All men will be forced by God to kneel before him and accept that he is. Agency does not play a part in this scenario. Neither does agency play a part in the scenario of being locked in a prison never to be allowed out unless one accepts the plan of salvation. Agency does not exist in this condition. There is no other choice. I was watching Harry Potter again the other day and when Voldemort forced Harry Potter to bow before him, I thought to myself, jeeze, that is what the Mormon God will do - because he CAN.
Mormons state that the choice is that you would stay in that prison until judgment time - in which you will be forced to bend knee and worship God. And then you will be placed in a kingdom - definitely not the Celestial Kingdom - but some other kingdom that is "set aside for that which is filthy" because the Kingdom of God is not filthy.
Each Mormon God exists within an expansive "bubble" in the universe that has infinite expansive capabilities. Each Mormon God that exists (a Mormon who becomes a God with all his wives) creates a new "bubble" in the universe and continues to expand within it. If we look at the Mormon universe as a whole, we would look at and find an infinite number of bubbles for each "eternity to eternity" that each said Mormon God (and his wives) have used to create, have billions of spirit babies and lead them to "salvation" or to their own "destruction" (as they so call it). Think about it - an infinite number of these.
What we would find if we examined this closely, is that we would find an infinite number of 1st and 2nd degree kingdoms full of those persons who did not transpire to the level of the Celestial kingdom for which they could continue on as god's themselves. Therefore we would find a number of souls that could not be calculated in numbers that are in states of prisons where they cannot move from kingdom to kingdom. This is an awful state. Mormonism accepts this state because they claim either these people merited this state of existence, or, these people were complacent and they choose to be in these kingdoms for all time and eternity - not just one bubble of eternity but all bubbles of eternity henceforth and forever. I am not even taking into account the number tossed away into prisons called "Outer Darkness".
It is an atrocious fact that the Mormon God creates prisons in order to house those who are in disagreement with him. Because a person, who God claims is a son or daughter, a literal offspring of God, does not agree with God, that God locks that son or daughter away forever and ever. He claims that where he is, they cannot come. This flies in the face of reason and love and the statement that God has unconditional love.
Mormons would argue that this is correct and that what we have chosen to do in the flesh merits our placement in the heavens. What Mormonism does not take into account is the fact that we made those decisions in bodies that are not perfect. If we take Mormonism into account, our bodies are flesh and blood as a tabernacle or "temple" surrounding our spirits. When we leave this world and return to the spirit prison, we are no longer subject to the flesh and therefore can make decisions unhindered by the flesh. Even so, we are judged by how we acted in the flesh with half our minds veiled rather than being judged while we had full understanding.
We are coerced into falling on our knees and obeying God. There is no choice. There is no door in the "bubble" that lets us walk outside. The only choice Mormonism gives us is to follow God or he claims we are followers Satan. There is nothing behind door number three. THERE IS NO CHOICE. Follow the Mormon God, or die a spiritual death. Obey, Obey, Obey, Obey.
I spent a great many years pondering this and weighing the Plan of Salvation to the plan presented by Lucifer, the brother of Christ - and ultimately our brother. I found that I could not agree with either plan. Satan, a plan of compulsion, or Christ, a plan that ultimately lead down the same path. Why did I have to be one of the many who was brought before God, either on the right or left hand of Christ? Why would I want to be on his right side, showing that I had been totally obedient to him, or on his left, and be numbered among one ones he was "ashamed" to own. Ashamed? My brother owns me and furthermore would be ashamed of me? My brother is bringing me before God - who ultimately is going to stick me in a prison he calls a Kingdom?
Mormons have this perception that the lower kingdoms including outer darkness will have some kind of order and learning to them. That they are not really "prisons", but are beautiful kingdoms that if we could see them now in our mortal flesh, we'd kill ourselves to get there. I completely disagree with that. A prison is a prison no matter which way you look at it. Take this scenario for a moment. The lowest kingdom of the Mormon God is the size of the earth. You didn't obey correctly so you are placed on it. You start walking. You don't have to eat, sleep, rest, so you just keep walking. How long will it take before there is not one inch of ground you have not crossed? 100 years? 1000 years? Ok, now criss-cross the earth again a few thousand more times. How long will it be before you finally just sit down, look up and realize you will never, ever EVER get out.
The fictional James T. Kirk said it appropriately to his alien captors. It doesn't matter how beautiful the cage is, it is still a cage.
I argued with my Bishop and Stake President over the fact that the Mormon God's plan of salvation was ultimately a plan of compulsion.
I got the standard run around that I chose my destiny in the pre-existence and I'm here on earth now because I chose correctly. I was told that I was “looking beyond the mark” and that all of the answers were not readily available. In essence, I got my first “you must have milk before meat” b***s***. I was told to stop studying the gospel and to “put those questions on the shelf for later”, and to pay, pray and obey.
I couldn't put it down. I was disgusted that I had “thought” I had found the true church, and yet, God's plan was flawed - it did not provide anyone with agency and the plan contained massive prisons to house those who were in disagreement with him. And what amazed me was that no other Mormon could see this. They could not use the term "prison", it was a "kingdom" or "heaven", and that I just didn't understand.
I began to see quite clearly why there was a war in heaven. I didn't believe the Mormon tale that Satan has “deceived” the spirit children into fighting against God - I believed that the war in heaven was truly based on the poorly formulated plan of salvation and how it would ultimately lead to the incarceration of billions of souls.
Ultimately what led me out of the Mormon Church was direct defiance to God. I turned my back on him because I refused to accept his plan any longer. I figured that I would be one of those who in the end would battle God for the defense and justice of His children. We needed to be free - free of a God who imprisoned anyone who did not wish to “kiss his ass” so to say.
I began to say, that if God judges all men, who judges God? When I asked this of other TBM friends I was scoffed at. Nobody had ever considered the possibility that God himself should be judged. The very thought was heresy.
Ultimately after I had my name removed I joined the ex-Mormon movement and began to unravel Mormonism piece by piece. Eventually I came to the conclusion that Mormonism was an absolute and complete fraud - perpetrated by a convicted criminal, a polygamist, polyandrous - and a pedophile - one Joseph Smith Jr.
That is when it all began to make sense - the plan of salvation was just a plan neatly created by a cultish organization, packaged with a big red ribbon and sold to all potential converts as a “nice” little plan whereby all mankind could be saved.
It's horse manure in a bowl covered with sugar and syrup, and I ate it for years until I got through the layers and found the flaws within it.
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_wenglund
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 4947
- Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:25 pm
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_Nephi
I can't totally agree with the idea that you give up free agency by being Mormon. If you follow all their laws, then there are a set amount of things you can and cannot do, and by choosing to be a Mormon, and by choosing to follow all these rules, you (in effect) give up some of your choices, but not all of them....
A good example of this is getting a license to drive a car. By accepting the plan of driving, and by showing that you can control such a vehicle, one earns the right to drive. When I drive, if I want to continue to be a legal driver, there are a whole slew of rules I have to follow such as
And a whole slew of other rules to follow. Does accepting these rules mean that I give up my free agency? No, there are many choices I still have at my disposal, such as where I am driving, who comes with me, what music to listen to, and many many other choices. Did I give up some choices by accepting these rules? Sure, but I am not some mindless drone on the roads.
I think its better to say one is a member of the Mormon Church than to say they are a Mormon, because the two have a great effect upon the ego that one develops in life. When one says they are a member of the Church, they are still their own separate entity; what changes the church's identity does not effect the individual. Its like saying you are a member of a political party. Just because the party says something or does something doesn't necessarily effect the individual's identity.
OTOH, if the individual says they are a Mormon, then their ego is more firmly attached to this identity. If Mormonism changes, they must change their own identity to match that of the church, thereby greatly removing a lot of personal freedoms they have at their disposal. This doesn't make them a mindless drone, mind you, but they have a better chance of actually changing themselves purely because the church says so instead of making the choice themselves.
However, all this aside, I don't see that Mormons are mindless drones. There are so many decisions at their disposal that the church does not control. Just because the Church asks much from its members does not make them drones, whether or not they choose to do as the church asks.
A good example of this is getting a license to drive a car. By accepting the plan of driving, and by showing that you can control such a vehicle, one earns the right to drive. When I drive, if I want to continue to be a legal driver, there are a whole slew of rules I have to follow such as
- Stay on the right side of the road, unless its a one way street, or has more than 2 lanes
- Stay at or slightly below the speed limit at all times, unless you are stopping
- Yield to others in specific situations
- Right on Red
- Checking blind spots at all times
- Properly maintenance your vehicle
- Pay yearly tax/tag fees and other applicable charges on my vehicle
And a whole slew of other rules to follow. Does accepting these rules mean that I give up my free agency? No, there are many choices I still have at my disposal, such as where I am driving, who comes with me, what music to listen to, and many many other choices. Did I give up some choices by accepting these rules? Sure, but I am not some mindless drone on the roads.
I think its better to say one is a member of the Mormon Church than to say they are a Mormon, because the two have a great effect upon the ego that one develops in life. When one says they are a member of the Church, they are still their own separate entity; what changes the church's identity does not effect the individual. Its like saying you are a member of a political party. Just because the party says something or does something doesn't necessarily effect the individual's identity.
OTOH, if the individual says they are a Mormon, then their ego is more firmly attached to this identity. If Mormonism changes, they must change their own identity to match that of the church, thereby greatly removing a lot of personal freedoms they have at their disposal. This doesn't make them a mindless drone, mind you, but they have a better chance of actually changing themselves purely because the church says so instead of making the choice themselves.
However, all this aside, I don't see that Mormons are mindless drones. There are so many decisions at their disposal that the church does not control. Just because the Church asks much from its members does not make them drones, whether or not they choose to do as the church asks.
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_harmony
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 18195
- Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:35 am
Some thoughts:
1. God and the LDS church are not synonymous, no matter how much members, leaders, or prophets want to make that so. God was around long before the LDS church started and will be around long after it is gone.
2. What people call the Mormon God does not exist anywhere outside LDS culture and those exposed to it. God is not the Mormon God. What people call the Mormon God is an invention of human minds, and nothing else. Infymus's entire tirade is against a strawman, a cultural phenomena, the smoke and mirrors of decades of human leadership that long ago lost the ability to communicate with God. If Joseph had it (and I think he did), he lost it, and those who came after him never had it at all. ETB was right: the church is under condemnation. We're going through the motions, but we don't "see" any better than anyone else does.
3. Freedom is such a broad subject, it's almost impossible to get a handle on it. None of us is truly free. We all live in a society of some sort, even if we're a hermit on the top of a mountain. There is no choice that doesn't have a consequence. The LDS world/culture has it's own set of choices and consequences, just as every other group does. We either accept them or reject them... or accept some while rejecting others. Calling our leader "prophet", claiming a direct route to God, and living some sort of elaborate stage play doesn't mean we're any different from any other group. Because we're not. We're not chosen, we're not special, and we sure as heck don't have leaders that know what they're doing.
1. God and the LDS church are not synonymous, no matter how much members, leaders, or prophets want to make that so. God was around long before the LDS church started and will be around long after it is gone.
2. What people call the Mormon God does not exist anywhere outside LDS culture and those exposed to it. God is not the Mormon God. What people call the Mormon God is an invention of human minds, and nothing else. Infymus's entire tirade is against a strawman, a cultural phenomena, the smoke and mirrors of decades of human leadership that long ago lost the ability to communicate with God. If Joseph had it (and I think he did), he lost it, and those who came after him never had it at all. ETB was right: the church is under condemnation. We're going through the motions, but we don't "see" any better than anyone else does.
3. Freedom is such a broad subject, it's almost impossible to get a handle on it. None of us is truly free. We all live in a society of some sort, even if we're a hermit on the top of a mountain. There is no choice that doesn't have a consequence. The LDS world/culture has it's own set of choices and consequences, just as every other group does. We either accept them or reject them... or accept some while rejecting others. Calling our leader "prophet", claiming a direct route to God, and living some sort of elaborate stage play doesn't mean we're any different from any other group. Because we're not. We're not chosen, we're not special, and we sure as heck don't have leaders that know what they're doing.
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_Infymus
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 1584
- Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 7:10 pm
harmony wrote:Infymus's entire tirade is against a strawman, a cultural phenomena, the smoke and mirrors of decades of human leadership that long ago lost the ability to communicate with God.
Please define how my argument is against a "straw man". My argument is against the Mormon "Plan Of Salvation(tm)" that Mormonism teaches to new converts. It has nothing to do with religion outside of Mormonism.
WIKI: A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw man argument" is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent. A straw man argument can be a successful rhetorical technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it is in fact a misleading fallacy, because the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted.
So tell me, Harmony, how is my argument against the POS(tm) a "straw man" argument?
Show me, oh please, the error of my ways, but please do so logically, rather than the Mormon, "the sensations under my nipples tells me so" way.