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One of the reasons I started the thread on "Assuring a Successful Life Journey" was to suggest the possibilities that our day-to-day thoughts and actions may often, or at least at times, be unwittingly at cross-purposes with our ultimate objectives or not lend themselves to achieving our ultimate objective.

For example, while my ultimate objective has always been to achieve a fullness and epitomy of happiness, joy, and love, there were many times in my life when my thoughts and actions were ruled almost exclusively by logic. In other words, my goal was purely emotional, but my approach was purely reason-based. Ironically, for the longest time, with all my deference to reasoning, I couldn't see the disconnect between my goal and my practice. It didn't occur to me that I couldn't very well achieve the height of certain emotions using a means that was virtually absent of emotions nor geared towards emotions.

As for now, I haven't abandoned reason, but I find it more functional to balance my reasoning with emotion, and to frequently check to make sure that my reasoning and emotions lend themselves to best achieving my ultimate objective.

Am I alone in this? Or, have you also experienced a disconnect between your goals and practice, though not necessarily in the same way as expressed above? And, if the latter, could you give some examples?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

wenglund wrote:One of the reasons I started the thread on "Assuring a Successful Life Journey" was to suggest the possibilities that our day-to-day thoughts and actions may often, or at least at times, be unwittingly at cross-purposes with our ultimate objectives or not lend themselves to achieving our ultimate objective.

For example, while my ultimate objective has always been to achieve a fullness and epitomy of happiness, joy, and love, there were many times in my life when my thoughts and actions were ruled almost exclusively by logic. In other words, my goal was purely emotional, but my approach was purely reason-based. Ironically, for the longest time, with all my deference to reasoning, I couldn't see the disconnect between my goal and my practice. It didn't occur to me that I couldn't very well achieve the height of certain emotions using a means that was virtually absent of emotions nor geared towards emotions.

As for now, I haven't abandoned reason, but I find it more functional to balance my reasoning with emotion, and to frequently check to make sure that my reasoning and emotions lend themselves to best achieving my ultimate objective.

Am I alone in this? Or, have you also experienced a disconnect between your goals and practice, though not necessarily in the same way as expressed above? And, if the latter, could you give some examples?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. Could you perhaps give us an example of a time when you were trying to reach an emotional goal by using logical means?

Scottie wrote:Could you perhaps give us an example of a time when you were trying to reach an emotional goal by using logical means?

In marriage and relationships, it happens all the time. There have been plenty of times I have griped to my husband about something that's going on at work, and he immediately goes into the "this is how you should fix it" mode, when all I really want is for him to listen to me gripe! LOL

And, yet, I will do the same thing my husband does to me with my friends. If one of my friends is starting to have a "pity party" about a problem, I will immediately focus on the problem and try to come up with solutions in an attempt to help him/her.

It might have something to do with how we are "wired"...left brain vs. right brain...etc.

Being a programmer, I tend to compartmentalize, and think of logical sequences.

As a mother and a teacher, however, I try to balance that logical sense with compassion.

My sense is...what Wade is referring to here...is that many folks revert to reason when speaking of whether or not they believe the Church to be "true". I think he is hoping that if more of the ex-Mormons here give into their feelings, they will reconnect with the Church, despite the logic that has driven them further away from the Church.

That's just a guess, though. I'll let Wade answer for himself.

;)

wenglund wrote:One of the reasons I started the thread on "Assuring a Successful Life Journey" was to suggest the possibilities that our day-to-day thoughts and actions may often, or at least at times, be unwittingly at cross-purposes with our ultimate objectives or not lend themselves to achieving our ultimate objective.

For example, while my ultimate objective has always been to achieve a fullness and epitomy of happiness, joy, and love, there were many times in my life when my thoughts and actions were ruled almost exclusively by logic. In other words, my goal was purely emotional, but my approach was purely reason-based. Ironically, for the longest time, with all my deference to reasoning, I couldn't see the disconnect between my goal and my practice. It didn't occur to me that I couldn't very well achieve the height of certain emotions using a means that was virtually absent of emotions nor geared towards emotions.

As for now, I haven't abandoned reason, but I find it more functional to balance my reasoning with emotion, and to frequently check to make sure that my reasoning and emotions lend themselves to best achieving my ultimate objective.

Am I alone in this? Or, have you also experienced a disconnect between your goals and practice, though not necessarily in the same way as expressed above? And, if the latter, could you give some examples?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I think buddhist monks achieve what you are seeking within five years of starting the monk curriculum training - the MCT

I don't see any reason why logic would stop producing true conclusions just because of where we decide to use it. Logic is fully applicable in human relationships - it's just another set of premises we're plugging in.

I feel happy when I spend time with my family.
I want to feel happy.
Therefore, I should spend time with my family.

My wife often tells me about her problems and frustrations.
I want my wife to feel happy.
My proposing solutions to her problems often increases her frustration.
Usually, she is made happier by my listening and empathizing with her feelings.
Therefore, most of the times my wife is unhappy, I should simply listen, and not propose solutions.

I am not saying that I sit down and write out logical arguments before I hug my kids. I am saying that true conclusions, in any situation, are based on true premises, and that the form of inference really does matter. If we decided to abandon the rules of logic, we'd end up with thinking like this:

I feel happy when I spend time with my family.
I want to feel happy.
Therefore, I should avoid my family.

Throwing logic to the wind also allows this kind of unwarranted conclusion:

I have great feelings of love toward my spouse.
Therefore, I know propositional information about my spouse, specifically, that he/she is not cheating on me.

Sadly, the history of human marriage provides ample evidence that this argument is invalid. Logic is, by definition, the rules and principles used to distinguish good reasoning from bad reasoning. An appeal to the dismissal of logic is just expecting others to pretend that you can come to a true conclusion from anything at all.

Scottie wrote: I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. Could you perhaps give us an example of a time when you were trying to reach an emotional goal by using logical means?

Sure. Years ago I was in a serious relationship with a woman, and my wish was for the two of us to be very happy. However, among many things that could be mentioned, we got into a minor dispute about my not openning the car door for her. She was of the mind that it was the loving and traditional thing to do, and reasoning suggested to me at the time that it would be an insult to her (thinking that such action would imply that she was too feable or inept) or perhaps it might inadvertantly and unhealthily foster dependancy or an attitude of servitude, and thus I considered it the wrong thing to do. Consequently, I declined to open the car door for her.

As you may well guess, my refusal not only baffled her, but hurt her as well, which in turn made me feel bad. In short, in that situation I lead entirely with my mind and unwittingly counter to my objective of happiness. Had I involved my heart in the decision-making process the outcome may have been quite different and in line with my objective. And, had my reasoning been more mindful and focused on the objective of happiness, rather than on avoiding dependancy or the like, things may have turned out differently as well.

Needless to say, that situation, and not a few others like it, eventually eroded the relationship until it ended after four years, and was so heart-breaking for me, that I remained deeply depressed for more than a decade thereafter. And, it took that devistating experience to realize that I actually had a heart, and to see the value in using it as well as my head, particularly in pursuit of happiness, joy, and love.

Does what I said earlier make sense to you now?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I've been thinking that my goals lately have been really short-term, as in I am simply trying to get through each day in one piece. As much as I would like to believe that I've put my episode of major depression behind me, I still recognize triggers and stressors every day, and I have to work hard to not let those things put me back in that state. So, maybe I don't have a long-term roadmap. That's a luxury I'll have once I can get past the day-to-day survival.

liz3564 wrote:

Scottie wrote:Could you perhaps give us an example of a time when you were trying to reach an emotional goal by using logical means?

In marriage and relationships, it happens all the time. There have been plenty of times I have griped to my husband about something that's going on at work, and he immediately goes into the "this is how you should fix it" mode, when all I really want is for him to listen to me gripe! LOL

And, yet, I will do the same thing my husband does to me with my friends. If one of my friends is starting to have a "pity party" about a problem, I will immediately focus on the problem and try to come up with solutions in an attempt to help him/her.

It might have something to do with how we are "wired"...left brain vs. right brain...etc.

Being a programmer, I tend to compartmentalize, and think of logical sequences.

As a mother and a teacher, however, I try to balance that logical sense with compassion.

My sense is...what Wade is referring to here...is that many folks revert to reason when speaking of whether or not they believe the Church to be "true". I think he is hoping that if more of the ex-Mormons here give into their feelings, they will reconnect with the Church, despite the logic that has driven them further away from the Church.

That's just a guess, though. I'll let Wade answer for himself. ;)

I liked your example, but your suspicions about my motives are way off the mark. My intent is not to reactivate people, but to help us all to be happy, and this through continually being mindful of that ultimate objective and continually striving to keep our daily thoughts and actions aligned with that ultimate objective. If that results in reactivation in the Church, then great. If it doesn't, then as long as the objective is being met, I am fine with that as well.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Awww, Wade....

:(

I'm so sorry.

What is it with all of these sweet guys with broken hearts? You, Bond, Nehor....

Where are you guys finding these mean Mormon women?

;)

Are you in a relationship now? I hope you are, or will be soon.

You deserve to be happy.

:)

AmazingDisgrace wrote:I don't see any reason why logic would stop producing true conclusions just because of where we decide to use it. Logic is fully applicable in human relationships - it's just another set of premises we're plugging in.

I feel happy when I spend time with my family.
I want to feel happy.
Therefore, I should spend time with my family.

My wife often tells me about her problems and frustrations.
I want my wife to feel happy.
My proposing solutions to her problems often increases her frustration.
Usually, she is made happier by my listening and empathizing with her feelings.
Therefore, most of the times my wife is unhappy, I should simply listen, and not propose solutions.

I am not saying that I sit down and write out logical arguments before I hug my kids. I am saying that true conclusions, in any situation, are based on true premises, and that the form of inference really does matter. If we decided to abandon the rules of logic, we'd end up with thinking like this:

I feel happy when I spend time with my family.
I want to feel happy.
Therefore, I should avoid my family.

Throwing logic to the wind also allows this kind of unwarranted conclusion:

I have great feelings of love toward my spouse.
Therefore, I know propositional information about my spouse, specifically, that he/she is not cheating on me.

Sadly, the history of human marriage provides ample evidence that this argument is invalid. Logic is, by definition, the rules and principles used to distinguish good reasoning from bad reasoning. An appeal to the dismissal of logic is just expecting others to pretend that you can come to a true conclusion from anything at all.

I agree.

And, lest there be any misunderstanding (not that there is), I am not advocating the dismissal of logic. Rather, I am advocating a healthy balance and marriage of reasoning and emotion as a life strategy, particularly when striving for an emotional end (such as happiness, joy, and love).

Thanks, -Wade Englund-