guy sajer wrote:Killing Laban was entirely superfluous.
My father, an attourney, said he thought there may actually be a reason Nephi needed to kill Laban: preparation for war with his brothers and their children. The wars between Nephites and Lamanites started early on, so apparently Nephi not only needed Laban's sword as a model for making more weapons, he also needed to be ready for killing in war when the time was necessary. Hesitating in battle will cost you your life as well as that of your comrades. From this POV, God was preparing Nephi for battle.
Maybe we should go round up homeless people and have Marines in boot camp shoot them as preparation for serving in Iraq? Really, this is one of the worst rationalizations for the murder of Laban that I've ever seen. Like I said, where there's a will, there's a way (to make it work), but sheesh, this is pushing the limits of sanity.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
Sethbag wrote:Maybe we should go round up homeless people and have Marines in boot camp shoot them as preparation for serving in Iraq? Really, this is one of the worst rationalizations for the murder of Laban that I've ever seen. Like I said, where there's a will, there's a way (to make it work), but sheesh, this is pushing the limits of sanity.
The bottom line is that, as in other places in Mormon scripture and history, we have things that violate our conscience and sense of morality. Chopping off the head of an incapacitated drunk is one we recoil at. But we approach it from the perspective that we know it's true, so there has to be a good reason God would command such a crappy thing. And so we come up with lousy excuses like the one above.
What I find fascinating is that a lot of church members are bothered by the Laban incident, but nobody bats an eyelash at the slaughter of men, women, and children at God's command in the Old Testament.
Actually, I think a lot of members are bothered by that stuff. At least, they're bothered enough to leave the Old Testament alone. How many members do you suppose study the Old Testament in depth compared to, say, the New Testament or Book of Mormon? I know that I have a pretty thick skin, and yet I'll freely admit that while I read the Book of Mormon, New Testament, and D&C many times through, I only ever read the Old Testament once all the way through, and that was when I was a teenager. I think people feel uncomfortable with a lot of that stuff, and so they just kind of ignore it, and don't think about it too much.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
Runtu wrote:What I find fascinating is that a lot of church members are bothered by the Laban incident, but nobody bats an eyelash at the slaughter of men, women, and children at God's command in the Old Testament.
In defense of church membes, I'd have to say that the Old Testament has always bothered me. It's full of such unbelievable crap that I chose to disregard it almost completely even as a TBM. My rationalization was that they only imagined God told them to do all these things. Of course, by that logic I soon realized that I have to disregard most of the scriptures. As well as the latter-day prophets, for that matter.
"reason and religion are friends and allies" - Mitt Romney
Sethbag wrote:Maybe we should go round up homeless people and have Marines in boot camp shoot them as preparation for serving in Iraq? Really, this is one of the worst rationalizations for the murder of Laban that I've ever seen. Like I said, where there's a will, there's a way (to make it work), but sheesh, this is pushing the limits of sanity.
Uh, no. It would be more like having Marines in boot camp serve on the firing squad for someone condemned to death.
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy. eritis sicut dii I support NCMO
How was Laban like someone who was condemned to death? What had Laban done to make him worthy of Nephi cutting his head off while he lay unconscious in the gutter?
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
Sethbag wrote:How was Laban like someone who was condemned to death? What had Laban done to make him worthy of Nephi cutting his head off while he lay unconscious in the gutter?
Remember frontier morality? Well, apparently Laban stole their property, and threatened their lives. Old Testament morality seems to perscribe capitol punishment for all sorts of things. So while in our code of morality, or especially in Europe's it's true that Laban wouldn't deserve to die, in Nephi's time Laban probably did deserve it.
Not that I like Old Testament morality.
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy. eritis sicut dii I support NCMO
Runtu wrote:What I find fascinating is that a lot of church members are bothered by the Laban incident, but nobody bats an eyelash at the slaughter of men, women, and children at God's command in the Old Testament.
In defense of church membes, I'd have to say that the Old Testament has always bothered me. It's full of such unbelievable crap that I chose to disregard it almost completely even as a TBM. My rationalization was that they only imagined God told them to do all these things. Of course, by that logic I soon realized that I have to disregard most of the scriptures. As well as the latter-day prophets, for that matter.
I think most LDS ignore the Old Testament, for the most part. THey talk about Noah, and Moses and some of the more common story, but they never bring up stuff like people living to be hundreds of years old. In fact, what is the position of the church on the age of people in the Old Testament? Wasn't Noah like 900 years old when he died? Apologists have nice answers for Adam and Eve and Noah's flood, but what is their explanation for the ages in the Old Testament?
"We of this Church do not rely on any man-made statement concerning the nature of Deity. Our knowledge comes directly from the personal experience of Joseph Smith." - Gordon B. Hinckley
"It's wrong to criticize leaders of the Mormon Church even if the criticism is true." - Dallin H. Oaks
Sethbag wrote:How was Laban like someone who was condemned to death? What had Laban done to make him worthy of Nephi cutting his head off while he lay unconscious in the gutter?
Remember frontier morality? Well, apparently Laban stole their property, and threatened their lives. Old Testament morality seems to perscribe capitol punishment for all sorts of things. So while in our code of morality, or especially in Europe's it's true that Laban wouldn't deserve to die, in Nephi's time Laban probably did deserve it.
Not that I like Old Testament morality.
So, culture is power powerful than God?
If God is bound by the cultural mores of the time, what good is God?
Our modern culture tells us that premarital sex is ok. Anyone want to guess what the response would be among the faithful were one gulity of fornication to appeal to cultural mores as justification?
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."
guy sajer wrote:So, culture is power powerful than God?
No. Rather we are somewhat limited by our ability to accept God's commandments according to our culture. That's why we live the law of tithing instead of full-on consecration. That's also why polygamy is no longer a requirement nor a possibility.
If God is bound by the cultural mores of the time, what good is God?
If a teacher is bound by the cultural mores of the students, what good is the teacher?
Our modern culture tells us that premarital sex is ok. Anyone want to guess what the response would be among the faithful were one gulity of fornication to appeal to cultural mores as justification?
There are some minimal requirements that God won't budge on. Sexual fidelity within the bounds of matrimony appears to be one of them.
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy. eritis sicut dii I support NCMO