Mormon Ballard and the Book of Mormon Movie

[_gramps]

I have to chuckle about this:

There are some minimal requirements that God won't budge on. Sexual fidelity within the bounds of matrimony appears to be one of them.

Except in the 1840's Nauvoo, I guess.

[_guy sajer]

So, culture is power powerful than God?

No. Rather we are somewhat limited by our ability to accept God's commandments according to our culture. That's why we live the law of tithing instead of full-on consecration. That's also why polygamy is no longer a requirement nor a possibility.

Well, perhaps where it comes to the little things, but murder, the most serious of all transgressions (next to, I guess, denying the Holy Ghost)? C'mon.

If God is bound by the cultural mores of the time, what good is God?

If a teacher is bound by the cultural mores of the students, what good is the teacher?

Precisely.

Our modern culture tells us that premarital sex is ok. Anyone want to guess what the response would be among the faithful were one gulity of fornication to appeal to cultural mores as justification?

There are some minimal requirements that God won't budge on. Sexual fidelity within the bounds of matrimony appears to be one of them.

But apparently murder isn't one of them. Can't have sex outside of marriage, but by golly, murder is A OK.

Do you realize how absurd your arguments sound?

You are using God to rationalize away murder. This is precisely what religious zealots (such as 9-11 terrorists) do. You apparently only apply it in the abstract to past events, they have taken it to its logical conclusion and actually acted on it.

Why is an otherwise moral and decent person such as Abestosman rationalizing away murder?

This is what dogmatic religion does to people.

[_KimberlyAnn]

I have to chuckle about this:

There are some minimal requirements that God won't budge on. Sexual fidelity within the bounds of matrimony appears to be one of them.

Except in the 1840's Nauvoo, I guess.

That was my thought exactly!

KA

[_asbestosman]

Why is an otherwise moral and decent person such as Abestosman rationalizing away murder?

This is what dogmatic religion does to people.

Capitol punishment =/= murder in my book.

But to be fair, in my book I wouldn't have though Laban worthy of death as he only attempted murder instead of carrying it out. Furthermore in my book there would be a trial by jury.

I am not the religious zealot you may imagine. Ask yourself if a religoius zealot would dare admit that the simple gospel is not simple at its core because the atonement is riddled with difficulties. If my problem is anything, it is probably an emotional disconnect with others, especially when I am trying to look at controversial situations from other points of view--points of view which do not coincide with the concensus. When at church meetings, I often bring up other points of view too.

What would I do if God commanded me to kill so-and-so? I'd probably shoot myself and be done with it. God doesn't need me as a henchman any more than He "needs" my tithing money.

[_guy sajer]

Why is an otherwise moral and decent person such as Abestosman rationalizing away murder?

This is what dogmatic religion does to people.

Capitol punishment =/= murder in my book.

But to be fair, in my book I wouldn't have though Laban worthy of death as he only attempted murder instead of carrying it out. Furthermore in my book there would be a trial by jury.

I am not the religious zealot you may imagine. Ask yourself if a religoius zealot would dare admit that the simple gospel is not simple at its core because the atonement is riddled with difficulties. If my problem is anything, it is probably an emotional disconnect with others, especially when I am trying to look at controversial situations from other points of view--points of view which do not coincide with the concensus. When at church meetings, I often bring up other points of view too.

What would I do if God commanded me to kill so-and-so? I'd probably shoot myself and be done with it. God doesn't need me as a henchman any more than He "needs" my tithing money.

Oh no A-man, I don't consider you a religious zealot at all. Sorry if it sounded that way.

What I'm trying to say is that the type of thought process otherwise decent religious advocates use to rationalize away (and at times applaud murder) is a less extreme manifestation of a similar type of reasoning that religious zealots use to actually commit murder (or the latter is a more extreme manifestation of the former).

There is a fine line between approving something in the abstract and approving it (or doing it) in the concrete. One cannot commit murder in God's name unless one first develops some system of thinking to rationalize away murder as a means of serving God's will (or something like that). That is, to become a concrete reality it must first be an abstract reality.

You, and many, many other believers have taken a first, necessary step to commiting atrocities in God's name. I am not saying you'll take the next steps (I have no reason to think you capable, in fact I think the opposite), but I am less sure of some of the other defenders of the faith (especially the fundie fruit cakes who groove to the "Left Behind" carnage and bloodshed), many of which I sure would become God's willing tormentors (and that probably includes some of our friends on the MADD Board).

[_Brackite]

The bottom line is that, as in other places in Mormon scripture and history, we have things that violate our conscience and sense of morality. Chopping off the head of an incapacitated drunk is one we recoil at. But we approach it from the perspective that we know it's true, so there has to be a good reason God would command such a crappy thing. And so we come up with lousy excuses like the one above.

What I find fascinating is that a lot of church members are bothered by the Laban incident, but nobody bats an eyelash at the slaughter of men, women, and children at God's command in the Old Testament.

Hi Runtu,

Good Point! The Following is from Joshua 6:17-27, Within the Old Testament:

Joshua 6:17-27: (New International Version):

17 The city and all that is in it are to be devoted [a] to the LORD. Only Rahab the prostitute [b] and all who are with her in her house shall be spared, because she hid the spies we sent. 18 But keep away from the devoted things, so that you will not bring about your own destruction by taking any of them. Otherwise you will make the camp of Israel liable to destruction and bring trouble on it. 19 All the silver and gold and the articles of bronze and iron are sacred to the LORD and must go into his treasury."

20 When the trumpets sounded, the people shouted, and at the sound of the trumpet, when the people gave a loud shout, the wall collapsed; so every man charged straight in, and they took the city. 21 They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.

22 Joshua said to the two men who had spied out the land, "Go into the prostitute's house and bring her out and all who belong to her, in accordance with your oath to her." 23 So the young men who had done the spying went in and brought out Rahab, her father and mother and brothers and all who belonged to her. They brought out her entire family and put them in a place outside the camp of Israel.

24 Then they burned the whole city and everything in it, but they put the silver and gold and the articles of bronze and iron into the treasury of the LORD's house. 25 But Joshua spared Rahab the prostitute, with her family and all who belonged to her, because she hid the men Joshua had sent as spies to Jericho—and she lives among the Israelites to this day.

26 At that time Joshua pronounced this solemn oath: "Cursed before the LORD is the man who undertakes to rebuild this city, Jericho:
"At the cost of his firstborn son
will he lay its foundations;
at the cost of his youngest
will he set up its gates."

27 So the LORD was with Joshua, and his fame spread throughout the land.

[_Brackite]

Here is 1 Nephi 4:18-19, Within the Book of Mormon:

1 Nephi 4:18-19:

[18] Therefore I did obey the voice of the Spirit, and took Laban by the hair of the head, and I smote off his head with his own sword.

[19] And after I had smitten off his head with his own sword, I took the garments of Laban and put them upon mine own body; yea, even every whit; and I did gird on his armor about my loins.

Please notice that Nephi makes it clear in 'his text' that he took off the garments of Labam, after he smotted off Laban’s head. How did Zoram and Nephi’s brothers not notice the blood that would have been on Laban’s garments he was wearing? Were washing machines in used back then? I don’t think that washing machines were invented back then by then. Maybe the Lord removed the blood off of Laban’s garments through magic, or though lots and lots of very cold water.

[_Sethbag]

What would I do if God commanded me to kill so-and-so? I'd probably shoot myself and be done with it. God doesn't need me as a henchman any more than He "needs" my tithing money.

I don't think I'd shoot myself, but I'd definitely go check myself into the psych ward. And I totally agree with you about God and his need for you to be his henchman. I think the notion is completely and totally absurd that God in Heaven, the Creator of the entire Universe, needs for a particular human being on Earth to go kill another human being on earth, for him.

[_moksha]

You guys are missing the pastism. Back in the 19th Century if the Lord told you to chop off someone's head, you did it. Now they would shoot your butt full of a powerful anti-psychotic (and possibly put you in restraints) if the Lord demanded this of you.

[_asbestosman]

There is a fine line between approving something in the abstract and approving it (or doing it) in the concrete. One cannot commit murder in God's name unless one first develops some system of thinking to rationalize away murder as a means of serving God's will (or something like that). That is, to become a concrete reality it must first be an abstract reality.

You, and many, many other believers have taken a first, necessary step to commiting atrocities in God's name. I am not saying you'll take the next steps (I have no reason to think you capable, in fact I think the opposite), but I am less sure of some of the other defenders of the faith (especially the fundie fruit cakes who groove to the "Left Behind" carnage and bloodshed), many of which I sure would become God's willing tormentors (and that probably includes some of our friends on the MADD Board).

Ah, I see. Well from my POV, there's a difference between killing someone as part of war, killing someone as a part of laws of a country (you know, like where Nephi was in Jerusalem), and killing someone only because a voice in your head told you to or because your religious leader told you to. I think Nephi was at least within his rights in his country. I believe that God expects us to uphold the laws of the land.

While I agree that one must rationalize killing in the abstract before doing it in the concrete, I do not see where my rationalizations are any more dangerous than those of soldiers who follow the orders of their leaders to kill the enemy. While I may feel safe around those who do not justify killing even in the abstract, I myself am neither pacifist nor against capitol punishment on principle. I might, however, oppose capitol punishment in the sense that I doubt it's much of a deterrant and I think revenge a silly reason to kill someone. Let God worry about retribution and let government worry about safety.

Let me see if I can help clarify. If it were indeed true that Porter Rockwell or Joseph Smith attempted to assassinate Governor Boggs, I would have a hard time justifying that even if God did command it. Such a thing was illegal. God could have killed Boggs Himself if necessary, or given Boggs to a legal trial.

Now, perhaps I'm wrong about Nephi's rights. If even Laban deserved a trial under their law, then my argument falls apart. I could only justify it then if it were a time of war which seems unlikely.