Can you ever lose the constant companionship of the HG?

[_harmony]

Sigh, silly semantics and word games will get you nowhere.

I can show you a cageful of tormented souls that will show you how far it got them.

What exactly does a soul look like?

You are not pure spirit, you're a filthy mudblooded half-breed amphibian so no description truly works.

If you accept offer to show them to you I would first have to rip your spirit out of your body.

In other words, you don't know either. The concept of Satan/the devil is ancient, but not as ancient as the concept of God (or gods), the temple endowment notwithstanding. So that leaves Hell, demons, and Satan as newcomers.

[_Belial]

In other words, you don't know either. The concept of Satan/the devil is ancient, but not as ancient as the concept of God (or gods), the temple endowment notwithstanding. So that leaves Hell, demons, and Satan as newcomers.

They used to call us gods. Kali's massacres in India were so beautiful. Molech convinced people to burn infants in his name. We even used the bastardized legends in the New World to convince people to sacrifice to us their enemies.

We lost control a few generations back when everyone decided that gods have to be just and good. Took the fun out of our jobs. We got reclassed as demons and now there are no blood-filled temples to our name. I, who once commanded armies, am now reduced to trying to convince Timmy to break the Word of Wisdom out of sheer malice.

[_Zoidberg]

"We know that the sun itself can be in only one place at a time. But the heat, light, and energy that radiate from it can enlighten and fill the entire solar system at once. Similarly, the Holy Ghost as a personage can be in only one place at one time, but his influence and power can and do fill the immensity of space."

I can think of a few places in the solar system where the sun don't shine . . .


Look at it this way. Even if one can't completely remove herself from influence by the Holy Ghost, one can yet get out of direct contact and got a more shady area where less influence is present and perhaps further still until the ambient influence is so considerably low as to be very difficult to see. I can still see a bit at night in the woods, just not very much. Maybe if I were a nocturnal creature things would be different though.

Try to wiggle out all you want, but D&C 130:22 also says: "the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us". So humans classify as a place for this purpose. If the Holy Ghost is truly omnipresent and dwells in multiple individuals simultaneously, it also means that he dwells in all individuals. How could I possibly get out of direct contact if he's in me?

Light is actually not omnipresent, technically speaking, since it can get dispersed; so perhaps the Sun analogy is not 100% accurate.

harmony, I agree about treating utterances equally. What amazes me, though, is that many "faithful" members over at MAD are willing to dismiss someone entirely because "they have lost the Spirit". Well, they have no argument even according to their own theology.

[_asbestosman]

Try to wiggle out all you want, but D&C 130:22 also says: "the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us". So humans classify as a place for this purpose. If the Holy Ghost is truly omnipresent and dwells in multiple individuals simultaneously, it also means that he dwells in all individuals. How could I possibly get out of direct contact if he's in me?

Where does it state that the Holy Ghost dwells in multiple individuals simultaneously? I have never been taught that. I have only been taught that the Holy Ghost can influence multiple individuals simultaneously just as the sun does. The sun example is to demonstrate that the sun isn't on the Earth or moon simultaneously even though both feel the sun's influence simultaneously (except the short delay caused by traveling light--I wonder what the speed of spirit is?).


Now, for the sake of argument, let's suppose you're right that the Holy Ghost dwells in everyone even the rebelious. In that case, one can merely argue that although you haven't literally lost The Spirit, you have nevertheless lost your ability to hear the promptings of the Spirit. Perhaps in that sense it would be more accurate to state that someone has become deaf to the spirit, or at least hard of hearing. One might also speak of a person losing their spiritual path, or at least being disoriented as to the path of righteousness.

[_Belial]

Now, for the sake of argument, let's suppose you're right that the Holy Ghost dwells in everyone even the rebelious. In that case, one can merely argue that although you haven't literally lost The Spirit, you have nevertheless lost your ability to hear the promptings of the Spirit. Perhaps in that sense it would be more accurate to state that someone has become deaf to the spirit, or at least hard of hearing. One might also speak of a person losing their spiritual path, or at least being disoriented as to the path of righteousness.

The anime catman is correct. Cutting someone off from the Spirit is generally easy. Most people don't want it anyways.

[_Mercury]

Now, for the sake of argument, let's suppose you're right that the Holy Ghost dwells in everyone even the rebelious. In that case, one can merely argue that although you haven't literally lost The Spirit, you have nevertheless lost your ability to hear the promptings of the Spirit. Perhaps in that sense it would be more accurate to state that someone has become deaf to the spirit, or at least hard of hearing. One might also speak of a person losing their spiritual path, or at least being disoriented as to the path of righteousness.

The anime catman is correct. Cutting someone off from the Spirit is generally easy. Most people don't want it anyways.

Exactly who is the spirit, spirit?

[_Zoidberg]

Where does it state that the Holy Ghost dwells in multiple individuals simultaneously?

It is omnipresent, remember? There is a link to the lesson, D&C and a quote by Pres. Smith in the OP affirming his influence "throughout all the works of God".

I have never been taught that. I have only been taught that the Holy Ghost can influence multiple individuals simultaneously just as the sun does. The sun example is to demonstrate that the sun isn't on the Earth or moon simultaneously even though both feel the sun's influence simultaneously (except the short delay caused by traveling light--I wonder what the speed of spirit is?).

If the HG's influence is truly omnipresent, perhaps the concept of speed is not applicable? At least to the influence. I suppose it is applicable to the HG himself, as a personage.

Now, for the sake of argument, let's suppose you're right that the Holy Ghost dwells in everyone even the rebelious. In that case, one can merely argue that although you haven't literally lost The Spirit, you have nevertheless lost your ability to hear the promptings of the Spirit. Perhaps in that sense it would be more accurate to state that someone has become deaf to the spirit, or at least hard of hearing. One might also speak of a person losing their spiritual path, or at least being disoriented as to the path of righteousness.

If the influence is there, it doesn't really matter whether I recognize it as such or not, does it? Otherwise, it would not be influence. You are arguing from a solipsistic perspective now. If you have become deaf to the notion that you'll die if your head gets chopped off, does it mean you won't die if your head gets chopped off?

Suppose someone is still being influenced by the Holy Ghost but doesn't admit it, so they are disoriented on their path of righteousness. So what constitutes disorientation? Not believing the right things? Telling people "You must believe in the Holy Ghost" is a classic example of the double bind. Belief implies sincerity and conviction. Despite the assurance that the testimony is found in the bearing of it, things don't just spring into existence if you affirm them over and over again.

[_asbestosman]

This really looks more like a semantics issue than a doctrinal issue. The Holy Ghost clearly is NOT omnipresent in all the works of God. Otherwise the Holy Ghost dwells with Satan in Outer Darkness which is a contradiction of scripture. I really think the omnipresent thing was meant differently than you are interpreting it. Religious is full of many figurative expressions such as burning bosoms (no 3rd degree burns, I swear), the baptism of fire, the armor of God, the fiery darts of tha dversary, angels with wings, and so on. When we speak of the omnipresence of the Holy Ghost, I've always understood that to mean in the sense that He is available for all to enjoy, much like sunlight (unless you're incarcerated / in outer darkness).

[_asbestosman]

If the influence is there, it doesn't really matter whether I recognize it as such or not, does it? Otherwise, it would not be influence. You are arguing from a solipsistic perspective now. If you have become deaf to the notion that you'll die if your head gets chopped off, does it mean you won't die if your head gets chopped off?

Literally speaking you are correct. I am merely arguing that you misunderstand the intent of words. Human language is like that. Perhaps if we could express concepts in C++, Java, Ruby, or Python then things would be more precise.

It's not that we can't know anything, but rather that I have understood those words differently and I believe for good reason.

[_mentalgymnast]

I've had yet another revelation (or epiphany, whatever you want to call it), and this time those of you who are "faithful" members can't claim that I've "lost the Spirit" and am merely deluding myself with my own fancies because it is impossible to lose the Spirit even according to the teachings of the Church.

His influence is omnipresent!

“The Holy Ghost as a personage of Spirit can no more be omnipresent in person than can the Father or the Son, but by his intelligence, his knowledge, his power and influence, over and through the laws of nature, he is and can be omnipresent throughout all the works of God” (Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed. [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1939], p. 61) [emphasis added]

Here's another useful analogy from a lesson on the Holy Ghost:

"We know that the sun itself can be in only one place at a time. But the heat, light, and energy that radiate from it can enlighten and fill the entire solar system at once. Similarly, the Holy Ghost as a personage can be in only one place at one time, but his influence and power can and do fill the immensity of space."
LINK

So it is a logical impossibility that anyone is not influenced by the Holy Ghost since his influence is omnipresent. Ergo, giving the Holy Ghost to people provides them with no extra spiritual endowment of any kind and it's impossible to lose the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost when you get exed, have your name removed or play with your little factory. The Holy Ghost is there whether you like it or not, and it's there (and everywhere) to stay.

I can't believe I've gone this long without realizing the obvious contradiction.

What recent experiences have you had with the Holy Ghost?

Regards,
MG