Is it Easier to "Rat" People Out in the LDS Chuch?

[_Mister Scratch]

A recent post from Kevin got me thinking:

Very few people post with their real identities and I don’t recall you ever bashing other LDS for cowardice. But even if they did post with their real identities, there would really be no way to verify their claims as an “ex-Evangelical” unless they dished out further information like what denomination they attended, where they attended Church, what year etc. Whereas former LDS simply have to give out their name and they’re screwed as soon as some LDS idiot starts his or her investigation and writes the stake President, threatening the lifestyle of not only the poster, but his or her family as well.

This points to quite a troubling fact about the LDS Church: the extensive record-keeping and monitoring of members (re: the SCMC) creates a sort of "culture of fear," where it is very, very easy for members to "rat out" one another. In all seriousness, what other church has got a system that is even close to this? (Or what other organization, for that matter? Stalinist Russia comes to mind, but that seems a rather extreme comparison.) As Kevin rightly points it, it would be awfully difficult to dredge up all the material for, say, an Evangelical in order to "screw them". On the other hand, in the LDS Church, it seems quite easy for a mere rank-and-file member to totally and utterly disrupt the life of someone they perceive to be "on the outs."

I was curious what others thought....

[_Mercury]

A recent post from Kevin got me thinking:

Very few people post with their real identities and I don’t recall you ever bashing other LDS for cowardice. But even if they did post with their real identities, there would really be no way to verify their claims as an “ex-Evangelical” unless they dished out further information like what denomination they attended, where they attended Church, what year etc. Whereas former LDS simply have to give out their name and they’re screwed as soon as some LDS idiot starts his or her investigation and writes the stake President, threatening the lifestyle of not only the poster, but his or her family as well.

This points to quite a troubling fact about the LDS Church: the extensive record-keeping and monitoring of members (re: the SCMC) creates a sort of "culture of fear," where it is very, very easy for members to "rat out" one another. In all seriousness, what other church has got a system that is even close to this? (Or what other organization, for that matter? Stalinist Russia comes to mind, but that seems a rather extreme comparison.) As Kevin rightly points it, it would be awfully difficult to dredge up all the material for, say, an Evangelical in order to "screw them". On the other hand, in the LDS Church, it seems quite easy for a mere rank-and-file member to totally and utterly disrupt the life of someone they perceive to be "on the outs."

I was curious what others thought....

Not only is it easy to out someone, its easy to attack someone using family and friends to put pressure on the truth seeker.

[_Jersey Girl]

Mister Scratch

In all seriousness, what other church has got a system that is even close to this?

None that I know of. Based on what I've seen on boards like this, Kevin is exactly right. I cannot count the number of times I've observed a poster expressing doubts or criticism of the church and following that, was subjected to a series of questions. Where do they live, what ward are they in, what work do they do.

I have seen more than one poster on boards, threatened with a letter to their SP.

If I recall correctly, the church maintains a data base of it's members. There are likewise, email lists for each Ward and Ward directories accessible by membership ID numbers.

It wouldn't be too hard to "out" someone as a doubter or apostate to friends and family in the local Ward, causing great hardship or loss to the individual and his/her family.

I agree with you, Scratch.

When I left my SB church about 4 years ago, I simply walked out the door. In those 4 years, I can recall just 2 phone calls from new Deacons introducing themselves to me and letting me know their availability. When I see folks from my church in public, they are friendly and kind, and we chat up a storm as always. There is no harrassment, no shunning whatsoever. None.

I can think of no reason for, nor one single instance of an EV setting out to "screw" another because they stopped attending.

[_Bond...James Bond]

Mister Scratch

In all seriousness, what other church has got a system that is even close to this?

None that I know of. Based on what I've seen on boards like this, Kevin is exactly right. I cannot count the number of times I've observed a poster expressing doubts or criticism of the church and following that, was subjected to a series of questions. Where do they live, what ward are they in, what work do they do.

I have seen more than one poster on boards, threatened with a letter to their SP.

If I recall correctly, the church maintains a data base of it's members. There are likewise, email lists for each Ward and Ward directories accessible by membership ID numbers.

It wouldn't be too hard to "out" someone as a doubter or apostate to friends and family in the local Ward, causing great hardship or loss to the individual and his/her family.

I agree with you, Scratch.

When I left my SB church about 4 years ago, I simply walked out the door. In those 4 years, I can recall just 2 phone calls from new Deacons introducing themselves to me and letting me know their availability. When I see folks from my church in public, they are friendly and kind, and we chat up a storm as always. There is no harrassment, no shunning whatsoever. None.

I can think of no reason for, nor one single instance of an EV setting out to "screw" another because they stopped attending.

I can totally relate Jersey Girl. I walked out of organized religion and haven't been asked about it once in real life in two years. Now these LDS exmos, it sounds like they're being passively stalked by a very rich but inefficient bureaucracy.

[_Sethbag]

There's a very real danger here of engaging in too much hyperbole. For believers within the church, for one, there's no fear at all. In that way, the rank and file have absolutely nothing to fear, as they would have had in Stalinist Russia.

The fear would really only apply to closet apostates criticizing the church on the internet, and then it's not universal. I, for one, don't really feel any fear at all, despite my rather vigorous criticism on this forum and on MAD. My bishop knows my belief situation and isn't inclined to do anything against me, probably for fear that it could lead to my wife and daughter not attending any longer. I am pretty sure he doesn't know about my online criticism, but I'm not really worried about him finding out and something drastic happening.

I'm at the point now where if he did find out about my internet criticism, and got all bent out of shape about it and escalated it to the SP and started court of love proceedings against me, I'd just submit a letter of resignation and be done with it. I don't really feel any fear because I know the church has no power over me, and that the beliefs aren't true, and that "losing my temple blessings" and priesthood amount to less than a hill of beans.

I suppose if I lived in a real naziesque ward with a control freak fanatic as bishop, and I was the EQ President and my wife were the Relief Society President and we were really popular in the ward, and I was online criticising the church while my wife was TBM, I might feel some measure of fear that if my identify leaked it would have some social ramifications and cause my family situation a lot of grief. But comparing that to Stalinist Russia is way overdoing it.

[_Gadianton]

One big difference between the church and stalin is that the church does not have any real power to do anything. So what you've got to do is extrapolate. If the church's power increased, how would it handle it?

You can look to BYU as a step in that direction. When I was there, you could actually submit forms into drop boxes ratting out roomates or anyone else who seemed to be breaking the honor code. Secret notes are made about appearance, beard and so on in the testing center. Just look at this, I just googled it up, about mixed camping trips:

http://honorcode.BYU.edu/index.php?opti ... temid=4613

Upon being ratted out, the situation is looked into and action taken. A university scenario is one where a little more power is available, and the church uses it at will. Files are kept and reviewed. Everyone has a case pending prosecution at the HCO. So now follow me here, while the church isn't stalinist russia, it ranks at the top in organized control of members. while BYU isn't stalinist russia, it ranks at the top of organized control over students, where all students are encouraged to stab each other in the back as necessary for the sake of the school's image. What of the MTC? And from the reports I've heard, it sounds like church related employment is similar. What would happen if the church ran the country? clearly, it would be a rule of terror. I'm not even kidding. The church is a dangerous institution.

[_Jersey Girl]

When Scratch and others use the term "rat out" a member. I assume that means revealing their disbelief or doubt? Am I correct in that assumption?

[_mentalgymnast]

This points to quite a troubling fact about the LDS Church: the extensive record-keeping and monitoring of members...

It may be at least partially due to what the leaders may consider a mandate from the Lord to do so.

D&C 85

1 It is the duty of the Lord’s clerk, whom he has appointed, to keep a history, and a general church record of all things that transpire in Zion, and of all those who consecrate properties, and receive inheritances legally from the bishop;
2 And also their manner of life, their faith, and works; and also of the apostates who apostatize after receiving their inheritances.
3 It is contrary to the will and commandment of God that those who receive not their inheritance by consecration, agreeable to his claw, which he has given, that he may tithe his people, to prepare them against the day of vengeance and burning, should have their names enrolled with the people of God.
4 Neither is their genealogy to be kept, or to be had where it may be found on any of the records or history of the church.
5 Their names shall not be found, neither the names of the fathers, nor the names of the children written in the book of the law of God, saith the Lord of Hosts.
6 Yea, thus saith the still small voice, which whispereth through and pierceth all things, and often times it maketh my bones to quake while it maketh manifest, saying:
7 And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by blot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God;
8 While that man, who was called of God and appointed, that putteth forth his hand to steady the ark of God, shall fall by the shaft of death, like as a tree that is smitten by the vivid shaft of lightning.
9 And all they who are not found written in the book of remembrance shall find none inheritance in that day, but they shall be cut asunder, and their portion shall be appointed them among unbelievers, where are wailing and gnashing of teeth.
10 These things I say not of myself; therefore, as the Lord speaketh, he will also fulfil.
11 And they who are of the High Priesthood, whose names are not found written in the book of the law, or that are found to have apostatized, or to have been cut off from the church, as well as the lesser priesthood, or the members, in that day shall not find an inheritance among the saints of the Most High;
12 Therefore, it shall be done unto them as unto the children of the priest, as will be found recorded in the second chapter and sixty-first and second verses of Ezra.

Regards,
MG

[_Runtu]

You all know about my "hate groupies" experience, wherein a particular poster on MADB circulated emails suggesting I was mentally unhinged and a possible sexual predator. She suggested contacting my stake president, my bishop, and my wife to put a stop to my evil behavior. It's quite easy to put the squeeze on someone in the church if you want to.

[_truth dancer]

1 It is the duty of the Lord’s clerk, whom he has appointed, to keep a history, and a general church record of all things that transpire in Zion, and of all those who consecrate properties, and receive inheritances legally from the bishop;
2 And also their manner of life, their faith, and works; and also of the apostates who apostatize after receiving their inheritances.

in my opinion, before anyone is baptized, they should be well informed of this scripture...

They should be clearly taught that even if they someday no longer believe in the LDS church, they are still considered a member and there will be a record kept of their life, faith, and works! Further, even if they resign their membership which must be done formally with a letter, they are still on the roles of the LDS church.

In terms of fear... once one is open and free of the church the fear is gone, but for many still in the closet, there is great fear, not of God but of the resulting consequences to one's work, family, and marriage.

In thinking of the many closet non-believers who have contacted me, one of the first things out of their mouth, is, "I can't let anyone know," or, "Please promise you will never tell anyone."

I think the church is full of closet non-believers who are still in the clutches of fear.

~dancer~