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All this talk of Warren Jeffs makes me think of the following incident:

While on vacation in Utah a year and a half ago, I was talking to my hubby's aunt about Warren Jeffs. We (my hubby and I) had just been to Wal-Mart in St. George at about 9:00 at night and we were spooked because we had seen so many of the FLDs families there. We hadn't really seen any polygamous families before. She said that they like to go to the store a little later in the evening, when its less crowded.

At one point in the conversation, she exclaimed something like "How can these people even think he is a prophet!! that's just crazy!"

I responded with "What do you mean, 'how can they believe'! They believe the same way you believe, with all your heart and soul you believe, and so do they! You were raised believing in your prophet, they were raised believing in theirs! Same thing!"

She said "Yeah, but he [insert crazy actions of Warren Jeffs]."

I said, "Weeelll, Joseph Smith did a lot of similar things. He married at least one 14 year old girl, and several women who were married to living men, and..."

She responded with "NO! LIES!! NO HE DIDN"T! You've been reading lies, and you need to go to the proper sources. You wouldn't go to a Ford dealer to find out about Chevy would you? No! I've read at least 4 books about Joseph Smith. Those are lies! Lies!! Do you read on the internet? You are naïve. You don't understand where to read..."

This went on for a good half hour or more. I'm naïve, I don't know what sources to go to, and on and on. LOL, she is one of the most naïve people I've ever met!

Eventually she had to retire to her room to recover. I didn't say anything else. I just nodded and let her rant. And rant she did. I desperately wanted to get on the internet, and show her, with LDS sources, that what I said was true, but I figured there was no point to it. I was better off letting it die. We needed a place to stay for another day or two, lol.

The next day was Sunday and my non believing husband went to hike the narrows with my son, so my other children and I went to F&T with her. Of course, she and her husband both bore their testimonies about the prophet Joseph. She said again how she had read 4 books about him, so she really knows him, lol. She knows he was always inspired and he never did anything questionable. She is so glad that all of her children are active, and believing (unlike her poor sister who has an unbelieving son-my husband), and on and on.

During another conversation, she came up with this doozy: She said that the reason Wilford Woodruff was able to do away with polygamy was because he wasn't polygamous!!! I was in no mood to argue with her, so I just feigned surprise and said that I wasn't sure about that. Good grief! Wilford Woodruff was polygamous, as was Lorenzo Snow, and Joseph F. Smith, and Heber J. Grant! The last polygamous prophet died in 1945!! And she thought Wilford Woodruff was monogamous!!

Yeah, the typical TBM really knows their church history.

Does a chapel Mormon really know church history?

Usually they do in my experience.

How do you know that they know? Do you talk about it with them?

I only ask because it is very rare that I have discussed these things outside of an internet setting.

bcspace wrote:

Does a chapel Mormon really know church history?

Usually they do in my experience.

Usually they don't in my experience.

When I worked for a company in utah county, a group of about 10 of us went to lunch together. It was a few days after a newsweek article came out (fall of 2005). Someone brought it up, and was talking about how it was basically a piece of anti-mormon propoganda, and that it was full of lies. No one at the table had heard of much of what was contained in that article. I was at the beginning stages of my disbelief, so I didn't say much. I just sat there feeling bad for them - i was in their shoes only a few months earlier.

Only 1 out of 5 others in my family had heard much of any 'controversial' history (parents, 3 siblings). My dad maintains that the americas were populated by Book of Mormon peoples (even though I've told him otherwise). My wife hadn't heard any of it. I hadn't either. I have another couple of friends who hadn't heard much of it. In fact, I'm not sure there's really anyone I know that had heard much of anything 'controversial'.

How do you know that they know? Do you talk about it with them?

Yep.

I only ask because it is very rare that I have discussed these things outside of an internet setting.

Most active people in my Ward (and Stake as I hold a Stake calling now) seem pretty conversant on the matter.

I would say most do not. Most certainly do not know about the difficult issues.

For a great discussion on this topic listen to these three podcasts on Blake Ostler's web page. The first is a Sunstone panel discussion. The other two are a conversation with John Dehlin, Blake Ostler (Who was on the panel discussion for Sunstone along with Kevin Barney and Mike Ash) about the issue.

See http://blakeostler.com/index.html

Inoculating the Saints

Episode 13: Our Discussion on Inoculating the Saints Pt. 1.

Episode 14: Our Discussion on Inoculating the Saints Pt. 2

bcspace wrote:

How do you know that they know? Do you talk about it with them?

Yep.

I only ask because it is very rare that I have discussed these things outside of an internet setting.

Most active people in my Ward (and Stake as I hold a Stake calling now) seem pretty conversant on the matter.

I"m just wondering what "pretty conversant" means. My TBM fil is quite knowledgeable, and a full believer, but it gets him in trouble at church all the time. I do talk w/him quite a lot, or I should say I did, because now that he is pretty sure I don't believe, he won't talk to me about questionable stuff anymore. I guess he doesn't want to encourage anything.

There is one guy in my ward who knows quite a bit. Very open minded and liberal. He does believe. I can talk to him. But I wouldn't call him a typical TBM in any sense of the word.

I do know that several people in the ward watched the PBS special.

Here is a way to get some Chapel Mormons to accuse you of making stuff up: Start talking about the Deseret Alphabet. By mentioning that Brigham Young commissioned this alphabet, they will also say you are defaming the Church.

That tells you something about the varying levels of Church history among Chapel Mormons - from the very informed to the very ill informed.

We're never going to be able to say anything conclusive on this topic because all we have is anecdotal evidence. My experience (42 years and counting in the church) suggests that most members are not particularly aware of church history, let alone controversial items.

I am reminded of the seminary teacher who told me last year that Joseph Smith's practice of polygamy was limited to marriages "in name only" to support elderly widows. He flatly denied that Joseph had practiced any form of polyandry or had consummated any of his plural marriages.

Or I think of my bishop in Texas, a department chair at a major university, who looked at me blankly when I went to him for help in resolving some of my issues with the church. Book of Mormon anachronisms? Nope, never heard of them. Book of Abraham translation problems? Nah, don't know what you're talking about. He said to read my scriptures, pray, and attend the temple. Did that. Didn't work.

Probably the best evidence that the rank and file don't know much about these things is the utter shock expressed by some people when they learn of these things. Some of the apologists sneer at these people, but the shock is genuine. Most people aren't curious enough to go beyond the lesson manuals and the scriptures, but sometimes they stumble across stuff, and it troubles them deeply.

Always Thinking wrote: You wouldn't go to a Ford dealer to find out about Chevy would you?

They don't all know church history, but they all know this analogy. It's perhaps the most popular analogy that Mormons have memorized. I swear they have an analogy pamphlet that is distributed in relief society or something. Another popular analogy that I've heard from multiple sources is used to describe the witness of the Holy Ghost. According to the analogy, it's like trying to describe color to someone who can only see black and white. That one has become really popular.

It's funny the difference between chapel Mormons and apologists. Chapel Mormons insist that we only get our information from official sources because you wouldn't go to a ford dealer to learn about a chevy. Meanwhile, the apologists tell us that it isn't up to the church to teach us about real church history. We should be finding this stuff out on our own, and if we don't know about the issues it's because we are lazy.