Again with the CFR on a common TBM argument

[_Scottie]

In the MAD thread, Why Does Anti-mormon Lit Upset LDS?, I posted this....

...
I've heard it many, MANY times on this board that they have a portion of the truth, and that is what they are feeling. But since LDS have the WHOLE truth, their spiritual witness is so much more complete. It's almost a mantra.
...

to which Mola Ram Suda Ram replied,

I call BS on you. CFR. If there are so many times this has happened and is truley the mindset of the LDS it should be easy for you to find lots of examples.

Now, please tell me I'm not crazy and that this is spewed by apologists on an almost daily basis??

[_Mister Scratch]

In the MAD thread, Why Does Anti-mormon Lit Upset LDS?, I posted this....

...
I've heard it many, MANY times on this board that they have a portion of the truth, and that is what they are feeling. But since LDS have the WHOLE truth, their spiritual witness is so much more complete. It's almost a mantra.
...

to which Mola Ram Suda Ram replied,

I call BS on you. CFR. If there are so many times this has happened and is truley the mindset of the LDS it should be easy for you to find lots of examples.

Now, please tell me I'm not crazy and that this is spewed by apologists on an almost daily basis??

One easy, albeit somewhat tangential example would be the FP's announcement that Buddha and Mohammed received only "a portion of God's light,' thus implying that the LDS Chuch and its leaders are less "benighted". Charity's remarks on the Book of Mormon intro thread are good evidence for this, too. In one of her posts she's carrying on about some people not having as much "light" as others, etc. Mola Ram is clearly an idiot.

[_cksalmon]

In the MAD thread, Why Does Anti-mormon Lit Upset LDS?, I posted this....

...
I've heard it many, MANY times on this board that they have a portion of the truth, and that is what they are feeling. But since LDS have the WHOLE truth, their spiritual witness is so much more complete. It's almost a mantra.
...

to which Mola Ram Suda Ram replied,

I call BS on you. CFR. If there are so many times this has happened and is truley the mindset of the LDS it should be easy for you to find lots of examples.

Now, please tell me I'm not crazy and that this is spewed by apologists on an almost daily basis??

Joseph Smith stated that all the relevant differences between Mormonism and other religions are a result of the Gift of the Holy Ghost. The Gift of the Holy Ghost, per the Encyclopedia of Mormonism, entails the presence of the Holy Ghost in one's life:

Manifestations include "bearing witness of Jesus Christ and of divine truths, providing spiritual guidance and warning as appropriate, and enabling discernment of right and wrong."

Since no other religions have direct access to the Holy Ghost, as do Mormons, and because Joseph Smith claimed that it is from this that stem all the differences between Mormonism and other religions, it stands to reason that Mormons believe their spiritual experiences--which are always attributed to the Holy Ghost--are superior to those of others (who lack the fullness of the Gift of the Holy Ghost).

That's the whole point of the Church. Bring your truth and we'll add to it.

Only LDS have direct, full access to the Holy Ghost via the laying on of hands by a priesthood holder.

To suggest that LDS do not believe their spiritual experiences are "more complete" than those of other religious faiths is simply an asinine statement to make.

CKS

What Makes Our Religion Different?

There is, however, another reason for our growth, one that transcends all others. Of an interview in 1839 between the Prophet Joseph Smith and Martin Van Buren, who was then president of the United States, the following was recorded: “In our interview with the President, he interrogated us wherein we differed in our religion from the other religions of the day. Brother Joseph said we differed in mode of baptism, and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. We considered that all other considerations were contained in the gift of the Holy Ghost” (History of the Church, 4:42).

One of the reasons the Prophet’s response was so inspired is that the right to enjoy the marvelous gifts of the Holy Ghost is conferred upon every member of the Church soon after baptism. This is in fulfillment of the promise of the Savior: “And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever” (John 14:16).

This powerful gift entitles the leaders and all worthy members of the Church to enjoy the gifts and companionship of the Holy Ghost, a member of the Godhead whose function is to inspire, reveal, and teach all things.

Faust from here

[_cksalmon]

And Romney from
here

The hallmark of the church of Christ, distinguishing it from all other churches and forms of worship, has ever been the receiving of the gift of the Holy Ghost by the membership of the Church.

This is what distinguishes The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints from all other organizations.

Following an interview with President Van Buren, the Prophet Joseph Smith and Elias Higbee wrote in 1839 from Washington, D.C., a letter to Hyrum Smith, in which they said:

“In our interview with the President, he interrogated us wherein we differed in our religion from the other religions of the day. Brother Joseph said we differed in mode of baptism, and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. We considered that all other considerations were contained in the gift of the Holy Ghost. …” (Documentary History of the Church, vol. 4, p. 42.)

And so it is, because the Holy Ghost is a revelator. The gift of the Holy Ghost “is the spirit of revelation; … [it] is,” said the Lord, “the spirit by which Moses brought the children of Israel through the Red Sea on dry ground.” (D&C 8:3.)

It is the witness given by the Holy Ghost to the individual members of the Church that God lives; that Jesus Christ his son, is our Savior and Redeemer; that his gospel is the plan of salvation and the way to eternal life; and that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is his church, possessing authority to preach the gospel and administer the saving ordinances thereof, which give vitality, strength, and power to the Church.

I bear to you, my brothers and sisters and friends, whoever you are and wherever you are, my personal witness to the truth of all these things to which I have called your attention.

The Holy Ghost has revealed to me that they are true. By his power I know that God lives; that we are his offspring; that Christ lives; that his gospel is true; that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is his church; that President Spencer W. Kimball is a prophet called by the Lord to preside over his church; that the Holy Ghost is a revealer of and a witness to these things; and that by his power each of us may, as Moroni declared, “know the truth of all things.” (Moro. 10:5.)

[_LifeOnaPlate]

CK: see the difference between the Light (or Spirit) of Christ, the influence of the Holy Ghost, and the influence of the Holy Ghost.

Scottie: if you know so many examples, you shoulda been able to come up with a few on your own without making a thread about it, aye? Or were you just looking for reinforcement? ;)

[_Sethbag]

LOAP, you don't know what you're talking about here. Scottie is right, this is an argument that's been brought up by mopologists many times. The fact that Scottie and I don't have URLs memorized to the discussions where this happened is irrelevant. If I have time I might go over and do some searching and find examples of it, although the search terms might be tricky to find out because it's a concept your looking for in print, not just a single phrase you can isolate.

The bottom line is that mopologists have long said that the spiritual witnesses of other churches could not be, and should not be discounted as false, because they believe a lot of things that are true, and are entitled to a witness from the HG of those true things that they believe. I've heard this over and over again from mopologists who recognize that without such an argument, they're faced with having to condemn the spiritual witnesses of every other church out there as simply wrong.

I can personally testify to this very argument having been made before by mopologists. I've had it used on me several times in discussions I personally took part in.

[_cinepro]

I think it's great that God inspires so many other people, regardless of their religion.

I would think it was even more great if he would inspire them to find the nearest LDS ward and join it ASAP.

[_cksalmon]

CK: see the difference between the Light (or Spirit) of Christ, the influence of the Holy Ghost, and the influence of the Holy Ghost.

Scottie: if you know so many examples, you shoulda been able to come up with a few on your own without making a thread about it, aye? Or were you just looking for reinforcement? ;)

The claim under consideration is that it is BS that non-Mormon religious have a portion of the truth, but that LDS have the whole truth, and, thus, their spiritual experiences are more complete.

The only part of the claim I find questionable is the statement that individual LDS have "the whole truth." Probably not many LDS would suggest that they are in possession of all truth. Hammer excepted.

Still, the underlying point is that Mormonism is the path to all truth via the revelatory gift of the Holy Ghost.

MRSR is apparently arguing that he, as an LDS, considers it BS to suggest that Mormons believe their spiritual experiences are "more complete" than those of other religions. If he's right, then there is utterly no reason for me to trade my own equally complete spiritual experiences (whatever those may be) for his.

Do you want to argue that non-Mormon spiritual experiences are equal to Mormon ones? Be my guest. But, tell the missionaries that, the next time they come over, I'm only interested in small talk. They seem to think they have something "more complete" to offer me. I'll let them know that that's FAIR-ly well BS.

CKS

[_SatanWasSetUp]

Why do the apologists deny this? The alternative is that LDS believe they are the one and only true church and all others are apostate, or the other end of the spectrum would be that those spiritual experiences from other churches are true. The theory of "partial truths" is a nice cuddly middle ground that most TBMs are happy with. I've heard multitudes of TBMs use the "they have some truth but we have all the truth" argument.

[_cksalmon]

Why do the apologists deny this? The alternative is that LDS believe they are the one and only true church and all others are apostate, or the other end of the spectrum would be that those spiritual experiences from other churches are true. The theory of "partial truths" is a nice cuddly middle ground that most TBMs are happy with. I've heard multitudes of TBMs use the "they have some truth but we have all the truth" argument.

I don't even think the "real" apologists do deny this central tenet of Mormonism. Scottie, apparently, has gotten caught in the cross hairs of some guy on a messageboard whose primary methodology consists in "Deny the critic's proposition," even if doing so undercuts the foundational truth claim of the Restoration--i.e., that Mormonism is spiritually "more complete" than non-Mormon religions.

CKS