Revelation, Inspiration, and Opinion....

[_truth dancer]

Every single word out of the prophet's mouth is not revelation, true, or doctrine.

I get this.

I get that there is little if any official doctrine, that scripture can be altered, changed, reinterpreted, revised, discarded, and eliminated.

Fine.

The problem however is that leaders continuously speak as prophets seers, and revelators, representing the one true church of God, and get things REALLY wrong.

Where is the inspiration?

Does anyone else wonder, if these men who claim to commune with God, who claim to have the keys given to them as seers and revelators, who supposedly represent Jesus Christ on earth cannot figure out what is or is not inspired, why do other regular men and women think THEY can figure out what God is trying to tell them.

If these men can't seem to figure out what is or is not true, why should they be trusted or relied upon for information or insight?

Forget about official doctrine for a minute... I understand they just speak their opinion but is it too much to assume that before speaking as a prophet, or representing Jesus Christ they didn't at the very least ask for inspiration?

If the prophets and leaders of the church can't figure out what is or is not inspiration, seems to me the average person who claims to have this gift may want to reconsider what they think is a personal revelation.

~dancer~

[_harmony]

Every single word out of the prophet's mouth is not revelation, true, or doctrine.

I get this.

I get that there is little if any official doctrine, that scripture can be altered, changed, reinterpreted, revised, discarded, and eliminated.

Fine.

The problem however is that leaders continuously speak as prophets seers, and revelators, representing the one true church of God, and get things REALLY wrong.

Where is the inspiration?

Does anyone else wonder, if these men who claim to commune with God, who claim to have the keys given to them as seers and revelators, who supposedly represent Jesus Christ on earth cannot figure out what is or is not inspired, why do other regular men and women think THEY can figure out what God is trying to tell them.

If these men can't seem to figure out what is or is not true, why should they be trusted or relied upon for information or insight?

Forget about official doctrine for a minute... I understand they just speak their opinion but is it too much to assume that before speaking as a prophet, or representing Jesus Christ they didn't at the very least ask for inspiration?

If the prophets and leaders of the church can't figure out what is or is not inspiration, seems to me the average person who claims to have this gift may want to reconsider what they think is a personal revelation.

~dancer~

I was listening to Ray Stevens the other night on the way home from a meeting that had gone over long, so I was miles and miles from home, and I needed something to stay awake with. (okay, so I have lousy taste in music, but at least it keeps me awake on the road!) Anyway, one of his songs says "would [Jesus] admit that he's talked to all those preachers who say they've been a'talkin' to him?"

Whenever our leaders say something really dumb (like equating earring holes to piety), I wonder if Christ just covers his eyes and shakes his head, wondering how anyone could get something so wrong for so long?

[_Gazelam]

You may recall that God has said

"For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.
Verily I say, men should be anxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness; (D&C 58:26-27)

The children of Israel were intended to all become prophets, like Moses himself, and all were invited to ascend to the top of Mount Sinai. But they made the decision not to, thinking the consequences of that knowledge too demanding.

So they were given a set of lesser commandments, and a lesser priesthood.

The gospel is not intended to be spelled out, with every commandment being laid out for every circumstance imaginable. We are instead meant to live out our lives under the influence of the Spirit, sanctifying ourselves that we may become a Temple for the Holy Ghost. There is a reason that the Spirit does not always strive with the righteous, this is so that we may learn to stand on our own, and be capable of doing what is right on our own without the influence of the Spirit.

Prophets seek to teach people to obtain the Spirit. To encourage them to obtain the ordinances and make the covenants neccesary to give them the scholing they need to draw closer to Christ.

[_Maxrep]

There is a reason that the Spirit does not always strive with the righteous

What does the baptismal promise, "The constant companionship of the Holy Ghost", mean to you?

The subject at hand is the prophet of our church, not your average member trying to endure to the end. With your line of thought, what prevents a large portion of the Book of Mormon from being Joseph's just taking a stab at the story line, interspersed with some inspiration here and there from the Lord?

I think what we are seeing today, in stark contrast to what we were taught as youth, is that the Lords anointed are very much on their own. I for one have felt for many years that the mantle of authority that the prophet carries has been diluted to a point that I just don't see divine inspiration in that calling.

[_Gazelam]

Max,

How much inspiration does a parent recieve for their chiuldren?

How much inspiration does a Father receive for his wife and children?

How much does a primary teacher receive for her class?

An Elders Quorum president for his quorum?

A Bishop for his Ward?

A Seventy for his area?

A Prophet receives advice from heaven as is needed. One of the great works of the Millenium will be all of the Temple ordinances that have to be done for the Millions of the Dead who died without Christ. Our current Prophet is very much engaged in preparing those Temples.

What exactly is it you are expecting from the Prophet of today that you are not getting? You need a better explanation of why you should be praying? Reading the Scriptures, maintaining the promises you made when you took your covenants?

Gaz

[_truth dancer]

Hi Gaz...

A Prophet receives advice from heaven as is needed. One of the great works of the Millenium will be all of the Temple ordinances that have to be done for the Millions of the Dead who died without Christ. Our current Prophet is very much engaged in preparing those Temples.

What exactly is it you are expecting from the Prophet of today that you are not getting? You need a better explanation of why you should be praying? Reading the Scriptures, maintaining the promises you made when you took your covenants?

This doesn't address my point, which is...

If the prophets who commune with God, who have the keys restored, who are called as seers and revelators, do not know when they are or are not inspired, why do you think YOU can rely on your personal inspiration?

In other words, the prophets, who at minimum I would guess pray and fast and ask for inspiration, are so completely wrong on so many occassions, why do believing members trust their personal inspiration?

And, where is their inspiration? The leaders certainly seem to think they are getting it. They repeatedly state that Christ is at the helm, and yet they can't really be trusted to speak truth... but they just share their uninspired opinion, same as the average person.

Do you see my point?

~dancer~

[_Gazelam]

Lol,

In other words, the prophets, who at minimum I would guess pray and fast and ask for inspiration, are so completely wrong on so many occassions,

such as ...when?

Your point is ridiculous. What do you think a prophet is? Those closest to Moses often thought he was a fallen prophet, and challenged his authority. You expect too much.

All of us are expected to be prophets, and to seek out inspiration. The Head of the church is there to receive inspiration for the church as a whole, no diferent than you yourself seeking inspiration for your household.

Try holding yourself to the same standard you hold the High Prophet to, and see if your attitude changes.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Gaz.... :-)

such as ...when?

Well, since you have mentioned BRM on another thread, lets go with him. He was completely wrong over and over and over. Most apologists relegate him to "opinion only" status. :-)

I'm not saying he has to be perfect... I'm suggesting he most likely prayed? Perhaps fasted? For inspiration? Would you disagree? And yet, here he was writing very uninspired material that was clearly his opinion, and completely incorrect.

Your point is ridiculous.

Why? Would you not expect a prophet of God to receive inspiration? And be able to know when he is inspired or not? Really, am I expecting too much?

What do you think a prophet is?

Well, I think a prophet is a man who claims to be speaking to God.... NOT a man who actually IS speaking to God. :-)

You expect too much.

Is it too much to expect a prophet of God, who claims to be in communion with the divine, who claims to have the power and authority of GOD, to at least know when he is or is not inspired? I seriously do not think this is too much to ask.

You see to think a prophet is nothing but a guy speaking his opinion thinking he is getting information from God.

All of us are expected to be prophets, and to seek out inspiration.

But if the prophets themselves can't figure out what is or is not inspired what chance has the ordinary person?

The Head of the church is there to receive inspiration for the church as a whole, no diferent than you yourself seeking inspiration for your household.

Yeah, but the prophets and leaders are unable to know when they are inspired or not. So what good are they?

Try holding yourself to the same standard you hold the High Prophet to, and see if your attitude changes.

I do hold myself to the same standard. :-) The only difference is I do not claim to receive inspiration, revelation, commune with God, or have the power and authority of God. (smile)


~dancer~

[_Jersey Girl]

Lol,

In other words, the prophets, who at minimum I would guess pray and fast and ask for inspiration, are so completely wrong on so many occassions,

such as ...when?

Your point is ridiculous. What do you think a prophet is? Those closest to Moses often thought he was a fallen prophet, and challenged his authority. You expect too much.

All of us are expected to be prophets, and to seek out inspiration. The Head of the church is there to receive inspiration for the church as a whole, no diferent than you yourself seeking inspiration for your household.

Try holding yourself to the same standard you hold the High Prophet to, and see if your attitude changes.

What standard does the Bible hold a prophet to?

[_Jason Bourne]

Every single word out of the prophet's mouth is not revelation, true, or doctrine.

I get this.

Ok. Is this a problem?

I get that there is little if any official doctrine, that scripture can be altered, changed, reinterpreted, revised, discarded, and eliminated.

I understand you point and in part you may be correct. But I do not think it is as simplistic as you make it sound. Can you give some examples of this in practice? I know a few and it was not a simple process.

The problem however is that leaders continuously speak as prophets seers, and revelators, representing the one true church of God, and get things REALLY wrong.

This could be interesting to discuss if you would provide some examples.

Does anyone else wonder, if these men who claim to commune with God, who claim to have the keys given to them as seers and revelators, who supposedly represent Jesus Christ on earth cannot figure out what is or is not inspired, why do other regular men and women think THEY can figure out what God is trying to tell them.

If these men can't seem to figure out what is or is not true, why should they be trusted or relied upon for information or insight?

Yes it does seem that the process of revelation and inspiration can be messier then we are led to think it is in the simple level one belief in the Church. I was discussing this with my daughter today in fact. I have some ideas to share about it but I am interested in your examples first.

Forget about official doctrine for a minute... I understand they just speak their opinion

No the sometimes speak opinion and sometimes doctrine. Your characterization is not accurate and much to one dimensional. I understand why you have it. I think it comes from the apologist. And yes, for them, any idea that seems odd or strange that they do not, or cannot explain becomes opinion. But remember, apologists do not run the Church. Apostles do. And THEY DO NOT THINK THAT MOST OF WHAT THEY SAY IS SIMPLY OPINION. Certainly 19th century leaders did not. Nor so I think they think that today. I know ETB and BRM are dead now but they thought what they said meant something. I think the leaders do today as well.

but is it too much to assume that before speaking as a prophet, or representing Jesus Christ they didn't at the very least ask for inspiration?

If the prophets and leaders of the church can't figure out what is or is not inspiration, seems to me the average person who claims to have this gift may want to reconsider what they think is a personal revelation.

I think that the leaders would not agree with what you paint here.