Joseph Smith's Marital Bed

[_beastie]

For believers who insist they want affidavits or some other absolute proof that Joseph Smith had sex with particular wives, my question is this:

If Joseph Smith had sex all of his wives, would he have been wrong to do so?

[_charity]

For believers who insist they want affidavits or some other absolute proof that Joseph Smith had sex with particular wives, my question is this:

If Joseph Smith had sex all of his wives, would he have been wrong to do so?

I guess I am not allowed to answer the question because I don't insist on affidavits.

But it I were allowed, I would say two things: It isn't wrong for a man to have sex with his wife.

And all these libidinous people who want to peek into people's bedrooms should just butt out.

[_Chap]

For believers who insist they want affidavits or some other absolute proof that Joseph Smith had sex with particular wives, my question is this:

If Joseph Smith had sex all of his wives, would he have been wrong to do so?

I guess I am not allowed to answer the question because I don't insist on affidavits.

But it I were allowed, I would say two things: It isn't wrong for a man to have sex with his wife.

And all these libidinous people who want to peek into people's bedrooms should just butt out.

So the answer from Charity seems to be, in effect "No. If Joseph Smith had sex with all of his wives, he would not have been wrong to do so."

(I am inclined to agree with her, to the extent that it is hard to conceive of a use of the English term 'wife' that excludes the legitimacy of sexual relations. Anyone who agrees that Joseph Smith's women were in any meaningful sense wives can reasonably be expected to agree that sexual relations with them would be a legitimate - and indeed normal - expectation. Why else call them 'wives'? Of course it is legitimate to object that one should not have more than one wife at a time, if one feels that way.)

To which she adds the rider that we should not talk about such matters, since they are private.

Have I misunderstood you, Charity?

[_Zoidberg]

What I don't get is why people are so defensive of Joseph Smith's sexuality. No one's trying to deny Brigham et al. had sex with all their wives. Why should it be any different with Joseph Smith?

Isn't it kind of natural to assume that married people have sex with each other? Especially if they are sealed for time and eternity, not just eternity. So I think the burden of proof should be on people who want to assert Joseph Smith didn't have sex with his other wives. I'm not talking about proving a negative, but the most logical conclusion is that they did have sex, IMHO.

[_harmony]

For believers who insist they want affidavits or some other absolute proof that Joseph Smith had sex with particular wives, my question is this:

If Joseph Smith had sex all of his wives, would he have been wrong to do so?

I guess I am not allowed to answer the question because I don't insist on affidavits.

But it I were allowed, I would say two things: It isn't wrong for a man to have sex with his wife.

And all these libidinous people who want to peek into people's bedrooms should just butt out.

Are you including some of our prophets? They are and were quite concerned about what goes on in the marital bedroom.

[_harmony]

What I don't get is why people are so defensive of Joseph Smith's sexuality. No one's trying to deny Brigham et al. had sex with all their wives. Why should it be any different with Joseph Smith?

Because publically, Joseph only had one wife. Although I don't agree with the basics on polygamy, it's the lies that Joseph told (and Fanny, of course), the taking advantage of young girls in his care, the subterfuge that colored everything he did. We can't even be sure the temple ceremonies were exempt from being tarnished (and influenced) by his lies.

[_Inconceivable]

In the perpetrator's eyes, once the mockery of a fake marriage were performed consumation was clearly within bounds.


Please, name one reason why he would not have felt justified in taking the women he considered his.


Please, name one reason why I should have given my soulmate (or my precious daughter) to such a wretched creature.

To those that can find a reason, I believe you have failed to understand the true principles of love, decency, faithfulness or commitment.


This is not that.

[_Zoidberg]

For believers who insist they want affidavits or some other absolute proof that Joseph Smith had sex with particular wives, my question is this:

If Joseph Smith had sex all of his wives, would he have been wrong to do so?

I guess I am not allowed to answer the question because I don't insist on affidavits.

But it I were allowed, I would say two things: It isn't wrong for a man to have sex with his wife.

And all these libidinous people who want to peek into people's bedrooms should just butt out.

Are you including some of our prophets? They are and were quite concerned about what goes on in the marital bedroom.

ROFL! That's right. We all know that oral sex is of the devil. Nelson's new wife has offered some insight (which he borrowed) on the restrictions on language during intimacy.

And, of course, if you use toys, you need to confess to your bishop and repent.

Not to mention the heinous crime of homosexuality. Even if you are married, it's a sin.

About Joseph Smith: but they do admit he was married to those girls, right? What does it matter if there was sex or not? If they believed they are to spend eternity with him, it's still emotional abuse and coercion. Or, alternatively, an angel with a flaming sword told him to do it. Then sex is perfectly legit, too, I reckon.

It baffles me that some TBMs will go to great lengths to deny any kind of sexual abuse took place. Because, obviously, that's the only kind of abuse that is truly harmful - it turns you into "spoiled goods".

When Martha Beck's book came out, her siblings issued a statement saying no sexual abuse ever took place. They completely ignored the allegations that Martha made of Hugh Nibley physically abusing (including breaking bones) not only her, but his other children. Which leads me to believe that it either did really take place (in which case it should still have been pretty damaging to Nibley's reputation as an open-minded mentor of youth whom everyone loved; admittedly not as scandalous as sex abuse) or they just didn't think it was a big deal.

Abuse can be disregarded as long as no "immorality" is involved. Gag.

[_beastie]

I'd like to get more input from other believers, if possible, but so far I will say that charity's answer is what I expected.

So if it were all right for Joseph Smith to have sex with all of his wives, if he so choose, why do some believers insist on affidavits or some other proof that would stand up in a court of law before even being willing to discuss the issue? You think it's ok if Joseph Smith had sex with his wives, then the conversation should proceed.

[_moksha]

Please, name one reason why I should have given my soulmate (or my precious daughter) to such a wretched creature.

For those who believed Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, who was commanded by God to take their wives and daughters and in return promise them eternal salvation for themselves and all their descendants, then the choice while hard was understandable. Hard because they were forsaking marital promises, their sense of moral decency and the welfare of their offspring in agreeing to such an accomodation. They were making their bargain for eternal exaltation but at a terrible price.

Should Joseph have been making such a bargain? I suspect you have all come to your own conclusion.