DCP Revises the Mopologetic Canon

[_Mister Scratch]

There is at present a thread underway at the aptly named MADboard in which the subject of "platonic sealings" has been raised. These so-called "platonic" ordinances, apparently, would serve the Mopologetic agenda of pooh-poohing away any icky suggestions about Joseph Smith sleeping with multiple women. However, none other than The Good Professor is claiming otherwise:

I'm told that Mormon apologists are claiming, on this very thread, that Joseph Smith's marriages to women other than Emma were Platonic.

I've just skimmed through the thread, and seem to have missed that claim. (Incidentally, unless I'm mistaken, "Thinking," who opened the thread, is not a believing Latter-day Saint, let alone an "apologist," and Dale is RLDS.) Perhaps it's here, and I've just failed to see it.

Can anybody help me find the many statements from Mormon apologists here in which they say that Joseph Smith's marriages were Platonic?

So... Is this therefore an admission (finally!) from The Good Professor that Joseph Smith, in fact, did have sexual relations with his plural wives??? I'd really like to know! Because if so, this is really quite a stunning admission/concession. It is a total upheaval of a part of the Mopologetic canon, in fact!

Later, he yuks it up some more, claiming that no Mopologist ever has argued against Joseph Smith & et. al. engaging in polygamous celibacy:

C'mon folks. Somebody? Anybody?

Somewhere -- I thought it was supposed to be here on this thread, but maybe it's really on a fog-shrouded island off the coast of Bolivia -- there's allegedly a sizeable tribe of "Mopologists" who argue that all of Joseph Smith's marriages were purely Platonic.

Help me out on this!

Okay, Prof. P: I'll help you out. Check out pp. 183-187 in Quinn's second Mormon Hierarchy book. This passage is devoted to debunking the many Mopologetic arguments against the polygamous sex of Joseph Smith, BY, and others. Quinn provides endnotes for at least a dozen sources. I know, my dear Professor P., that you'll have no issue with tracking them all down, since you don't believe that "I should do your research for you." Happy hunting!

[_SatanWasSetUp]

Wow. In defense of DCP, I don't know if DCP himself ever argued that Joseph's polygamous marriages were platonic, but it is a very, very common argument (which strikes me as odd since nobody cares that Brigham Young screwed all his wives). This argument most typically comes from TBM women, and I see it on-line a lot, but I'm not sure if it's an "official" apologetic excuse from the apologist handbook. But, that being said, if the apologists abandon this theory and admit that Joseph's marriages included sex, it will be a huge blow to the testimonies of many sweet sisters.

[_harmony]

Wow. In defense of DCP, I don't know if DCP himself ever argued that Joseph's polygamous marriages were platonic, but it is a very, very common argument (which strikes me as odd since nobody cares that Brigham Young screwed all his wives). This argument most typically comes from TBM women, and I see it on-line a lot, but I'm not sure if it's an "official" apologetic excuse from the apologist handbook. But, that being said, if the apologists abandon this theory and admit that Joseph's marriages included sex, it will be a huge blow to the testimonies of many sweet sisters.

The difference being that Brigham didn't lie about it, at least not once they got to Utah Territory.

[_skippy the dead]

The difference being that Brigham didn't lie about it, at least not once they got to Utah Territory.

And I also believe that his wives were his alone, and weren't married to other men first (and still living and sleeping with those other husbands along with Joseph Smith).

[_LifeOnaPlate]

I've heard everyday members of the Church state their opinion that Joseph Smith never consummated plural marriages, but I don't remember seeing any apologetic works claiming that he didn't. I know you cited Quinn above; does his work respond to particular claims, or does it merely emphasize that Joseph did consummate said marriages?

[_Mister Scratch]

I've heard everyday members of the Church state their opinion that Joseph Smith never consummated plural marriages, but I don't remember seeing any apologetic works claiming that he didn't. I know you cited Quinn above; does his work respond to particular claims, or does it merely emphasize that Joseph did consummate said marriages?

An excellent question. Quinn is careful to note that "definitive" answers about the extent of Joseph Smith and other early Church leaders' sex lives are very hard to come by. The passage I cited is devoted primarily to showing why apologetic lines of argument are flawed---i.e., it is very, very unlikely that the marriages were purely "platonic." But then, as DCP has said, no apologist apparently believes that they were.

Just watch: I predict that The Good Professor will see this thread, and then revise his comments to indicate the "unsureity" of it all. Of course, this still means a re-write of the Mopologetic Canon: i.e., it is tantamount to admitting that Joseph Smith had sex with these other women, including, perhaps, 14-year-old Helen Mar.

[_LifeOnaPlate]

From what I see on that thread, DCP still doesn't believe there is any substantial evidence that Joseph had sex with Helen Mar, and I don't see his position as shifting at all; I've never personally heard of or seen DCP say Joseph's plural marriages were platonic. Does anyone have a reference where he did?

[_Mister Scratch]

From what I see on that thread, DCP still doesn't believe there is any substantial evidence that Joseph had sex with Helen Mar, and I don't see his position as shifting at all;

I'm not really sure what DCP's own, personal position is---and let's face it, he often deliberately obscures what his position is in order to avoid being held accountable for it---and anyways that is beside the point. The point is that a significant number of LDS apologists have attempted to argue that early Mormon leaders did not have sex with their plural wives. Telling TBMs that Joseph Smith, for example, wasn't "consumating" his plural marriages has long been standard operating procedure for the Mopologists. Now, however, we have the Good Professor on record claiming that *NO* apologist has *EVER* argued that position! This is a total re-writing of the apologetic canon, hence the title of the thread.

I've never personally heard of or seen DCP say Joseph's plural marriages were platonic. Does anyone have a reference where he did?

Well, in the above-cited passage from Prof. P., we can see him saying that the marriages were *NOT* platonic, which is really the more important issue. As Satan Was Set Up noted, this sort of admission would, in all likelihood, be devastating to countless members' testimonies. Many TBMs are completely unaware that Joseph Smith engaged in polygamy at all, let alone that he was having intercourse with his many wives.

[_SatanWasSetUp]

From what I see on that thread, DCP still doesn't believe there is any substantial evidence that Joseph had sex with Helen Mar, and I don't see his position as shifting at all; I've never personally heard of or seen DCP say Joseph's plural marriages were platonic. Does anyone have a reference where he did?

In my experience, the attitude from so called "internet Mormons" is there isn't enough evidence to show he had sex with them, and the attitude from so called chapel Mormon is he absolutely DID NOT have sex with anyone by Emma. DCPs statements can be interpreted as "just because I don't think he had sex with his plural wives doesn't mean I think the marriages were platonic."

[_karl61]

I passed research methods and statistics (barely) but I can identify pure crap and this appears to be a con - who wrote this? - notice all the people they don't list -

http://www.fairwiki.org/Joseph_Smith's_marriages_to_young_women