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Some more thoughts on polygamy

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:28 pm
by _Runtu
I just finished reading Todd Compton's book In Sacred Loneliness for the second time. The first time I was a believer, and I found the book troubling for many reasons, but this time I read it as an unbeliever. Some thoughts:

1. Someone on MAD asked me how many of Joseph's plural wives Emma knew about and consented to. If you count the Partridge sisters (whom Emma chose after Joseph had married them, so he performed a second, fake marriage), you have 4 out of Compton's 33 well-documented wives. But I don't count the Partridges, as Joseph married them secretly first. So, that's 2 out of 33. Not exactly a hallmark of openness and honesty.

2. I am troubled that Joseph used older women, such as Patty Sessions and Elizabeth Durfee, to approach younger women and girls to introduce them to the practice and assuage their fears. I hope I can be forgiven for finding this disturbingly similar to the procurers who scour bus stations to find new recruits to prostitution rings.

3. The practice of bargaining for women, which came up this morning in regards to Clarissa Hancock and Fanny Alger, is disturbing but illustrative of a practice that treats women as the property of righteous men.

4. Instead of creating a polygamous family, Joseph's polygamy is serial in nature. He would marry a wife, have sex with her in secret, call on her a few times, and then essentially move on to the next one, particularly if Emma discovered the relationship.

5. Most of the wives were given 24 hours to make their decision. Often they were told that this decision would affect the exaltation of their entire families. I can't help but see this as incredibly manipulative and coercive.

6. Joseph sometimes used family members to persuade women and girls to marry him. With Sarah Ann Whitney and Helen Kimball, he told the father that the entire family's exaltation depended on the daughters' acceptance. Both girls recount being torn in the extreme, but they trusted their fathers. Other times, Joseph separated the women from loved ones, as if Joseph were afraid that the loved ones would not agree. Marinda Hyde's husband and Lucy Walker's father were sent away on missions, and after they left, Joseph approached with the same "commandment" and same 24-hour ultimatum.

Maybe I'm mentally defective, but I don't see anything godly in any of this. I will say that these women come off as rather heroic in following what they believed. But if there is a God out there, some people have some explaining to do.

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:48 pm
by _moksha
Runtu, could you expouind on #3?

Also, I am both intrigued and alarmed at the notion of bagaining away wives and daughters in exchange for familial exaltation. I wonder if Charity or someone else has a take on this.

Re: Some more thoughts on polygamy

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:49 pm
by _barrelomonkeys
Runtu wrote: But if there is a God out there, some people have some explaining to do.


Agreed.

Re: Some more thoughts on polygamy

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:52 pm
by _barrelomonkeys
Runtu wrote:
2. I am troubled that Joseph used older women, such as Patty Sessions and Elizabeth Durfee, to approach younger women and girls to introduce them to the practice and assuage their fears. I hope I can be forgiven for finding this disturbingly similar to the procurers who scour bus stations to find new recruits to prostitution rings.



When I saw the use of older women in another thread (where you mentioned it) my alarm bells went off. This is such a tried and true technique. Women often times will trust older, wiser women where so they wouldn't necessarily trust a man. This is so disturbing to me, on so many, many levels.

Heartbreaking. Like I want to cry. Terrible.

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:56 pm
by _Runtu
moksha wrote:Runtu, could you expouind on #3?

Also, I am both intrigued and alarmed at the notion of bagaining away wives and daughters in exchange for familial exaltation. I wonder if Charity or someone else has a take on this.


Well, that's not what I was referring to in #3, but you are correct in suggesting that Joseph made a family's exaltation contingent on giving up a wife or daughter on several occasions.

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:57 pm
by _barrelomonkeys
http://hugoboy.typepad.com/hugo_schwyze ... young.html

Young women need older men in their lives who will respect and care about them, who aren't their fathers or brothers but who aren't prospective lovers, either. They need to know that they bring more to the table than their sexuality. They need to be seen as complete human beings. Paradoxically, seeing young women as complete human beings means that in actions, words, and yes, even in thought, older men cannot see them as objects of sexual desire. That doesn't mean that we (older guys) shouldn't acknowledge that younger women are sexual creatures. But we must (and the burden is on us alone here, fellas) love them with radical unselfishness,and that requires that we ourselves always refrain from sexualizing them.


:(

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 5:05 pm
by _karl61
One thought on why he might have had older women do the introduction thingy is there was an incident where he was pulled out of bed at night by that group of men (a legend about one that he kicked) and a doctor was waiting ready to do an "operation" but then changed his mind. Some thoughts were proposed that the one that got the group together was a guy whos sister Joseph was flirting with or maybe even proposed to.....

Re: Some more thoughts on polygamy

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 5:05 pm
by _the road to hana
Runtu wrote:Maybe I'm mentally defective, but I don't see anything godly in any of this. I will say that these women come off as rather heroic in following what they believed. But if there is a God out there, some people have some explaining to do.


A red flag in Section 132 of the Doctrine and Covenants is the threatening language to Emma Smith attributed by Joseph Smith to deity. It's more than a little reminiscent of "pay no attention to that man behind the curtain."

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 5:21 pm
by _moksha
Runtu wrote:
moksha wrote:Runtu, could you expouind on #3?

Also, I am both intrigued and alarmed at the notion of bagaining away wives and daughters in exchange for familial exaltation. I wonder if Charity or someone else has a take on this.


Well, that's not what I was referring to in #3, but you are correct in suggesting that Joseph made a family's exaltation contingent on giving up a wife or daughter on several occasions.


Without having an intervening sentence muck up the question (sorry), could you tell more about #3?

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 5:26 pm
by _skippy the dead
moksha wrote:Runtu, could you expouind on #3?

Also, I am both intrigued and alarmed at the notion of bagaining away wives and daughters in exchange for familial exaltation. I wonder if Charity or someone else has a take on this.


Charity will just tell us to butt out, and that it's private business.