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In Runtu's polygamy thread I was reminded once more, as if I could forget, how integral lying and deceit were in Joseph Smith's practice of polygamy.

Someone should have sent Joseph Smith this link on YouTube that might have helped clarify things for him.

Sethbag wrote:In Runtu's polygamy thread I was reminded once more, as if I could forget, how integral lying and deceit were in Joseph Smith's practice of polygamy.

Someone should have sent Joseph Smith this link on YouTube that might have helped clarify things for him.[/url]

If you think about it, all you need to know is this:

Joseph Smith == liar

He lied to the public, and he lied to his wife. Why should we accept anything the man said at face value?

As Bob McCue asked in an interview I heard with him, it all boils down to whether Joseph Smith was trustworthy. If he wasn't, then why believe him?

Would you be OK with Joseph Smith being the instructor for your 17 year old daughter's Laurels class?

Knowing what we know now about Joseph Smith's willingness to lie, both publicly and privately, to cover up things he was doing from people who wouldn't appreciate it, would you trust Joseph Smith? Would you invest money with him? Would you trust him if he asked for a private interview with your wife?

If you would answer with an emphatic "Yes!" to all of these questions, then you deserve him.

I personally couldn't answer yes to questions like this. I think it's obvious that Joseph Smith was not an honest and trustworthy person. And that personally puts the kibosh on my ability to believe in him as a prophet. A prophet is making extraordinary claims, and is asking for extraordinary trust and obedience. A prophet needs to be trustworthy and credible to be able to ask those things and expect to get them, at least from me.

One more point. I grew up in the generation of the church that saw videos like this when I was growing up. There was always a big emphasis on honesty, integrity, trustworthyness, etc. I still remember the story of that one kid that traded with the Indians and ended up getting way more from them than his own offering to them deserved, and his dad sent him back to return the surplus to the Indians, whereupon he was told that they knew he'd be coming back, because they trusted his dad. I remember being extremely impressed with stories like that.

The whole honesty and integrity thing has always been very highly played up in the church, and I think that's one of the reasons the Joseph Smith polygamy fiasco strikes home so hard. Joseph was simply not honest. He was deceitful, full of guile, and secret works, and he entered into secret covenants with others who pledged to keep his doings secret. Gadianton Robbers anyone? Knowing all of this stuff, having been raised as an LDS kid who believed it all, and was raised to regard honesty as one of the highest possible virtues, it really is next to impossible to rationalize Joseph Smith's guile and deceit. Not that the diehard apologists won't do it anyway, but they will come across as disingenuous and openly partisan. They just remind everyone with arguments justifying the lying and the deceit, that they believe in Joseph Smith implicitly, and it doesn't matter what he did, they will justify it or rationalize it away. No matter what it is.

'I don't know if we teach that' ;)

Or, just think if modern Church leaders had continued the secret practice of Polygamy!

It is entirely possible that President Hinckley has 10 wives scattered all over Utah at this very moment. There are certainly strong doctrinal arguments to support such a possibility, and the only reasons we have to not believe it were also reasons the Nauvoo members of the Church had to not believe Joseph Smith was practicing polygamy (he said he wasn't, it's illegal, it's a repugnant idea etc.)

I certainly don't think President Hinckley or any other LDS leaders have more than one living wife, but I have to admit that had I lived in Nauvoo, I wouldn't have believed Joseph Smith was practicing polygamy either. But then again, maybe the best argument against the idea is that, for better or worse, modern leaders just aren't like Joseph Smith.

cinepro wrote:Or, just think if modern Church leaders had continued the secret practice of Polygamy!

At least one of them did.

It is entirely possible that President Hinckley has 10 wives scattered all over Utah at this very moment. There are certainly strong doctrinal arguments to support such a possibility, and the only reasons we have to not believe it were also reasons the Nauvoo members of the Church had to not believe Joseph Smith was practicing polygamy (he said he wasn't, it's illegal, it's a repugnant idea etc.)
I certainly don't think President Hinckley or any other LDS leaders have more than one living wife, but I have to admit that had I lived in Nauvoo, I wouldn't have believed Joseph Smith was practicing polygamy either.

Excellent point. The pattern of dishonesty began with Joseph Smith. Who's to say it hasn't continued?

Runtu wrote:

Sethbag wrote:In Runtu's polygamy thread I was reminded once more, as if I could forget, how integral lying and deceit were in Joseph Smith's practice of polygamy.

Someone should have sent Joseph Smith this link on YouTube that might have helped clarify things for him.[/url]

If you think about it, all you need to know is this:

Joseph Smith == liar

He lied to the public, and he lied to his wife. Why should we accept anything the man said at face value?

Don't be ridiculous, Runtu. If God threatened you with a flaming sword, you'd lie too. As the Prophet explained to Nancy Rigdon when she rebuffed his marriage overtures,

"That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be and often is, right under another. God said thou shalt not kill,—at another time he said thou shalt utterly destroy. This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted—by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire."

God told Abraham to lie to pharaoh about his marital relations with Sarah. Why should the situation with Joseph be any different? Obviously he was just fulfilling the law of God, and if it weren't for all the sin in your life you'd be able to see that. Maybe you should pray more and read anti-Mormon literature less. Damn race-baiter.

-Pahoran

CaliforniaKid wrote:
Don't be ridiculous, Runtu. If God threatened you with a flaming sword, you'd lie too. As the Prophet explained to Nancy Rigdon when she rebuffed his marriage overtures,

"That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be and often is, right under another. God said thou shalt not kill,—at another time he said thou shalt utterly destroy. This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted—by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire."

God told Abraham to lie to pharaoh about his marital relations with Sarah. Why should the situation with Joseph be any different? Obviously he was just fulfilling the law of God, and if it weren't for all the sin in your life you'd be able to see that. Maybe you should pray more and read anti-Mormon literature less. Damn race-baiter.

-Pahoran

Holy crap! I think you're channeling our old friend. Brilliant!

Would you be OK with Joseph Smith being the instructor for your 17 year old daughter's Laurels class?

Not for a minute. Nor would I trust him with a fourteen year old Mia maid. :-)

In addition, I was always taught that for men, one's priesthood was based on their worthiness, and for women and men, the ability of the HG to manifest in one's life was also dependent on their worthiness. In other words, if one was not worthy (behavior in inappropriate ways, breaking commandments, lying, cheating, stealing, etc. etc. etc.), they would not have the HG to attend them, and in the case of men, their priesthood would become useless.

And here we have Joseph Smith, who was clearly lying, cheating, sleeping around with girls, single women, married women, destroying the reputation of women who would not accept his advances and men who called him out, and yet everyone believes he was receiving revelation upon revelation.

It is just astounding. Truly.

~dancer~