crocket's source: Before Columbus by Cyrus Gordon
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 12:01 am
In an earlier thread, Bob referenced a source I was unfamiliar with:
http://mormondiscussions.com/discuss/vi ... n&start=84
crocket
I already discussed at length how Bob revealed his ignorance by denying the ancient Mesoamericans had "literature". I also pointed out that his tourist guide is hardly a reliable source. But now I focus on Gordon.
As I stated on the thread, the “man riding the horse” is identified as a deer by Sorenson himself.
Since I didn’t have Gordon’s book at the time of the original posting, I did not know what crocket was referencing. However, since then I obtained Cyrus Gordon’s “Before Columbus” and can return and report.
I cannot locate any reference in Gordon’s book to a toy horse pulling a cart. However, I admit that I was laughing so hard during many parts of the book I could have missed it. Here is the reference to horses I did find, on pate 143:
There is a photograph of a “copper chariot and warriors, from Anatolia, end of third millennium BC.” (page 147- Anatolia is in Turkey) The caption reads:
There is no source or reference given for Gordon’s claim that animal drawn miniature vehicles have been found in Mesaoamerica.
Wow. What a reference! What great research Bob has once again performed!
But I can’t resist sharing some more quotes from Cyrus Gordon’s book. It is remarkable. It is dated 1971, and it’s remarkable that an educated man could produce such poor research.
Take his first chapter, which is composed of “proof” that ancient America was actually peopled largely by individuals from all over the world. What is his evidence? Why, the art that “looks” like certain races. If the art shows a beard and prominent nose, it’s Semitic. If it shows large lips and a broad nose, it’s Negroid! No further proof needed, of course. Here’s some examples:
You gotta love this stuff. It is a perfect, perfect source for someone like Bob. The fact that the Maya stylized their art (and their real life babies’ foreheads) with slanted foreheads is proof that they did so because they so admired the Semites who had graced their shores with their superiority. And lest you think I am putting words in this author’s mouth, read this:
Bravo, bob, Bravo! Excellent research, reliable sourcing! You are an example to us all.
http://mormondiscussions.com/discuss/vi ... n&start=84
crocket
And, yes, there have been depictions of horses in Mesoamerican art. (The man riding the horse at Chitzenitza is a famous example; the toy horse pulling the cart is another; see references in Cyrus Gordon's book, "Before Columbus").
I'm not sure depictions in art have much meaning here. The Museum of Anthropologie in Mexico City (I've been there; seen them myself) have a depiction of a bearded European man dating back to around 600 AD to 1000 AD; there is a mural depicting two races of people, white and brown, fighting each other. My guide (a moonlighting university professor) at the Museum told me that these pieces of art demonstrated (1) Europeon contact with MesoAmerica long before Columbus, and (2) a now-extinct light-skinned peoples. But, what of it?
What do you mean by "literature?" The only "literature" of which I am familiar is Popul Vuh and since that post dates the conquest I put little faith in it.
You put no faith in the observations of the conquistidors?
I already discussed at length how Bob revealed his ignorance by denying the ancient Mesoamericans had "literature". I also pointed out that his tourist guide is hardly a reliable source. But now I focus on Gordon.
As I stated on the thread, the “man riding the horse” is identified as a deer by Sorenson himself.
Since I didn’t have Gordon’s book at the time of the original posting, I did not know what crocket was referencing. However, since then I obtained Cyrus Gordon’s “Before Columbus” and can return and report.
I cannot locate any reference in Gordon’s book to a toy horse pulling a cart. However, I admit that I was laughing so hard during many parts of the book I could have missed it. Here is the reference to horses I did find, on pate 143:
The wheel in pre-Columbian America was restricted to toy wagons as far as archaeological study now records. The lack of draught animals may have ruled out the use of wheeled vehicles for practical purposes, but it is wrong to say that pre-Columbian Americans were ignorant of the wheel.
In the Andes the native llama and alpaca were used as pack animals for carrying burdens. The impression those small beasts make on visitors used to seeing sturdy Old World beasts of burden (such as camels, oxen, horses, mules, or donkeys) is that they are more akin to sheep and goats than to real pack animals. Indeed they are not capable of carrying loads comparable with those a normal donkey can transport. We may be accordingly confronted with another example of translation. Old World people used to pack animals, on coming to the Andes, trained the little cameloids to carry burdens, not because they are well suited for that role, but because they were the best available substitute.
There is a photograph of a “copper chariot and warriors, from Anatolia, end of third millennium BC.” (page 147- Anatolia is in Turkey) The caption reads:
Copper chariot and warriors, from Anatolia, end of third millennium BC. Wheeled animal-drawn vehicles in miniature have been found in Mesoamerican excavations, showing Old World influence precisely because draft animals and wheeled vehicles were not used in pre-Columbian America.
There is no source or reference given for Gordon’s claim that animal drawn miniature vehicles have been found in Mesaoamerica.
Wow. What a reference! What great research Bob has once again performed!
But I can’t resist sharing some more quotes from Cyrus Gordon’s book. It is remarkable. It is dated 1971, and it’s remarkable that an educated man could produce such poor research.
Take his first chapter, which is composed of “proof” that ancient America was actually peopled largely by individuals from all over the world. What is his evidence? Why, the art that “looks” like certain races. If the art shows a beard and prominent nose, it’s Semitic. If it shows large lips and a broad nose, it’s Negroid! No further proof needed, of course. Here’s some examples:
The remarkable fact of the countless Mesoamerican ceramic figurines is that they portray few, if any, American Indian types (such as the Aztec or the Maya) before A.D. 300. Those that appear prior to that date (and many that appear for a thousand years thereafter) belong to other races such as Far Eastern, African Negro and Caucasian. Among the latter are a number of Mediterranean types, especially Semites. ‘
The evidence for the preceding is on record in an important and handsomely illustrated book by Alexander von Wuthenau, The Art of Terracotta Pottery in Pre-Columbian Central and South America. We shall review some of the ceramic sculptures to get an idea of their implications.
We start with the large Mixtec Negro heads fro Oaxaca. It is postclassical, 19 cm high and belongs to the Josue Saenz Collection in Mexico. The black color and the features, such as the thick lips, leave no doubt in anyone’s mind that the artist has portrayed a Negro. No artist can “invent” authentic races of mankind, such as the types we are examining. The implication is simply that early America was the meeting ground of various races of men from the Old World who were eventually absorbed into the modern Indian populations. (p 220
From the Maya area of Iximche, in the province of Chimaltenango (Guatemala), comes a superb incense burner, probably of preclassical date. It is 33.5 cm high and belongs to the Musee de l’Homme in Paris. Everything about the sculptured head – nose, beard, expression – would fit a Northwest Semite. Whether he was a Phoenician, Syrian, Israelite, Greek, or even an Etruscan is not important, for delving into such problems often degenerates into unprofitable hyperfiness. If we be impelled to define him specifically, we may tentatively call him “an ancient Mediterranean merchant prince.” From the Early Iron Age into Roman times, people of his type maintained creative contacts with middle America. He typifies an important group of the merchant mariners who linked the Mediterranean with the New World. His motives may have been trade, but trade for him meant the development as well as exchange of natural resources – all of which required the spread of science and technology. No physical anthropologist will try to change his classification from Mediterranean to American Indian. And the incense burner is related to similar ones from Veracruz. Accordingly in our “merchant prince” we have a specific link between preclassical Mesoamerica and the ancient Mediterranean.
In the private collection of Alexander von Wuthenau is a Mayan head, larger than life-size, of a pensive, bearded Smite. The dolichocephalic (“long-headed”) type fits the Near East well. He resembles certain European Jews, but he is more like many Yemenite Jews. In Maya fashion his nose appears to extend up to the middle of his forehead. This Maya custom is best explained as an exaggerated imitation of the prominent nose that characterizes so many Near Eastern types. It was precisely because men like the Mediterranean merchant princes were aristocrats in the Mesoamerican Order tha ttheir features were emulated by their Maya Indian successors. (p26)
You gotta love this stuff. It is a perfect, perfect source for someone like Bob. The fact that the Maya stylized their art (and their real life babies’ foreheads) with slanted foreheads is proof that they did so because they so admired the Semites who had graced their shores with their superiority. And lest you think I am putting words in this author’s mouth, read this:
The testimony of ancient American sculpture is complex but clear to this extent: Long before the Vikings reached America around AD 1000, Mesoamerica had long been the scene of the intermingling of different populations from across the Atlantic and Pacific oceans. Some of the most creative people in America came from the Near East; but no one group monopolized the scene. Caucasians from one end of Europe and Japanese types, from the Far East; from the Mediterranean at different times came various Semites including Phoenicians and Carthaginians, as well as Egyptians, Greeks, Etruscans, Romans and still others. In general, the main consequence was the mingling of highly civilized people from all over the world, creating on American soil, through the pooling of their cultural resources, a galaxy of brilliant old American civilizations, whose final phases are known to us as Inca, Maya, and Aztec. In culture, as in the physical universe, out of nothing comes nothing. The breathtaking achievements of the Mesoamericans could not be, and were not, the works of savages who lifted themselves up by their bootstraps. Instead they are the culminations of mingled strands of civilization brought to these shores by a variety of talented people from Europe, Africa, and Asia. (p 30)
Bravo, bob, Bravo! Excellent research, reliable sourcing! You are an example to us all.