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I've often heard of the concept of "godly sorrow" for one's sins motivating one to repent. My wife and I were talking about the idea that it's better to die than lose your virtue, and we talked about a couple of missionaries in our mission who were sent home for sexual behavior. In both cases, the overriding emotion seemed to be shame and embarrassment. Talking to one of these missionaries, I understood that he was less concerned about the sinful nature of what he had done but rather he was terrified of facing his family, his ward, his small town. He felt like he couldn't go home, couldn't handle being made a pariah, but that's what he knew would happen.

I'm not saying that this guy and the other missionary I talked to were mistreated or shunned when they got home (I really have no idea), but my discussion with my wife made me wonder if some of what keeps people from violating commandments is social pressure. On the flip side, I wonder if the same social pressure keeps people from confessing their actions in fear of being publicly marked as a sinner. Someone doesn't take the sacrament, and people wonder what's going on. A young man or woman isn't allowed to do baptisms for the dead, and everyone wonders why. So people don't confess. It was obvious to me in the MTC that the leadership there assumed that a lot of missionaries had "unrepented sins," hence the intense pressure to confess before leaving the MTC (and the number of missionaries, though small, sent home from the MTC). One of my mission friends had to confess to Bruce McConkie before he was cleared to leave for Bolivia. He said several people told him there was no way they would confess under those circumstances.

I'm just kind of pondering in print, as I am thinking that maybe the tools used to motivate good behavior are also the same hindrances to people actually repenting (at least as far as repentance is defined by the church).

Runtu wrote:I'm just kind of pondering in print, as I am thinking that maybe the tools used to motivate good behavior are also the same hindrances to people actually repenting (at least as far as repentance is defined by the church).

I think so. I think pressure should be minimised. People won't change if they're told how morally bad they are. It might work for a while, but in the long term it will cause estrangement, if "demands" can't be met.

If you are in debt to God, does it really make sense to try bargaining with Him for an easier repentance? I think if one is worried about their reputation then that person is not ready to repent. Oh, he might be sorry and ready to give up the sin, and maybe even confess it. But if he's more worried about reputation or other consequences then I don't think he's humbled himself sufficiently where he will put God's will above his pride. Repentance can be hard like that.

The flip side of that, in my opinion, are the people who shun or otherwise avoid or further hurt (actively or not) those who do confess to various sins. I think that needs to change. On the one hand I can understand the idea of choosing close friends from those who put the most effort into following th prophet by wearing no more than one set of earrings. On the other hand, the idea of dumping a girlfriends over it does seem a bit pharisaical. Perhaps that's only justified when it comes to looking for a mate. I mean I think it's a person's right to choose a mate in part for superficial things like eye-color if they really want to. On the other hand, I think it unfair if everyone shuns brown-eyed girls or everyone only asks out blondes or whatever. Furthermore I think it really bad if nobody will ever go on a date with you unless you are a virgin and/or an RM.

asbestosman wrote:If you are in debt to God, does it really make sense to try bargaining with Him for an easier repentance? I think if one is worried about their reputation then that person is not ready to repent. Oh, he might be sorry and ready to give up the sin, and maybe even confess it. But if he's more worried about reputation or other consequences then I don't think he's humbled himself sufficiently where he will put God's will above his pride. Repentance can be hard like that.

I wasn't addressing that, but I will here. If the social pressure is greater than the sorrow for behavior, social pressure will win. And often it doesn't indicate the person's humility (and I'm not sure what you mean by bargaining for an easier repentance) as it does the intense familial and social pressure. I'm glad I was never in that situation.

The flip side of that, in my opinion, are the people who shun or otherwise avoid or further hurt (actively or not) those who do confess to various sins. I think that needs to change. On the one hand I can understand the idea of choosing close friends from those who put the most effort into following th prophet by wearing no more than one set of earrings. On the other hand, the idea of dumping a girlfriends over it does seem a bit pharisaical. Perhaps that's only justified when it comes to looking for a mate. I mean I think it's a person's right to choose a mate in part for superficial things like eye-color if they really want to. On the other hand, I think it unfair if everyone shuns brown-eyed girls or everyone only asks out blondes or whatever. Furthermore I think it really bad if nobody will ever go on a date with you unless you are a virgin and/or an RM.

This I agree with. And I need not add that this is exactly what I was talking about.

Runtu wrote:(and I'm not sure what you mean by bargaining for an easier repentance)

My idea was basically telling God that you'd finish repenting with a confession, but only if your parents wouldn't constantly remind you how disappointed they are in you, etc. If you're saying you'd repent except for the fact that people you know don't treat repentant sinners properly, then you are worried about the wrong thing in my opinion. Sure, if circumstances were ideal then it would be easier to repent, but I suppose if circumstances were ideal, it would have been easier for Jesus to have atoned for our sins too.

Ray A wrote:

Runtu wrote:I'm just kind of pondering in print, as I am thinking that maybe the tools used to motivate good behavior are also the same hindrances to people actually repenting (at least as far as repentance is defined by the church).

I think so. I think pressure should be minimised. People won't change if they're told how morally bad they are. It might work for a while, but in the long term it will cause estrangement, if "demands" can't be met.

Right. Sure, Ray. You hypocrite.

Mister Scratch wrote:
Right. Sure, Ray. You hypocrite.

I do make some exceptions. Like Scratch. Judases should not be shown mercy. None at all. They should be hung by the balls.

asbestosman wrote:If you are in debt to God, does it really make sense to try bargaining with Him for an easier repentance? I think if one is worried about their reputation then that person is not ready to repent. Oh, he might be sorry and ready to give up the sin, and maybe even confess it. But if he's more worried about reputation or other consequences then I don't think he's humbled himself sufficiently where he will put God's will above his pride. Repentance can be hard like that.

The flip side of that, in my opinion, are the people who shun or otherwise avoid or further hurt (actively or not) those who do confess to various sins. I think that needs to change. On the one hand I can understand the idea of choosing close friends from those who put the most effort into following th prophet by wearing no more than one set of earrings. On the other hand, the idea of dumping a girlfriends over it does seem a bit pharisaical. Perhaps that's only justified when it comes to looking for a mate. I mean I think it's a person's right to choose a mate in part for superficial things like eye-color if they really want to. On the other hand, I think it unfair if everyone shuns brown-eyed girls or everyone only asks out blondes or whatever. Furthermore I think it really bad if nobody will ever go on a date with you unless you are a virgin and/or an RM.

Jeez-louise, how many hands do you have?

It all seems a lot simpler to me. I was the one who made the confession, got ex'd and suffered several years of intense depression for it all. Whatever "shunning" I got was pale by comparison. In retrospect, none of it was worth it. I should have just left the church without the repentance process and I would have been better off. Sex is not a big enough deal to have to suffer for and any god who says it is is insane.

A very wise and kind friend once told me that you are who you are when no one is watching.

If you keep a secret that would change the way others may perceive you, it may be a deception. If that is the person you don't want to be, change.

It is always more important to see a person for who they are now, than who they were or might have been.

Fear of humiliation or rejection by peers is quite most disabling to this critical process of becoming who you want to be.

I have decided it is better to confess to those I have decieved and accept the humiliation than to live a lie in their presence. It's just me. Otherwise their trust in you is false.

The whole "confession" thing is just nonsense.

I mean if you believe in God, you can confess to God, although God probably already knows what is going on. (smile)

Praying with an intent to change your life, going through a cleansing ritual, or some sort of release ceremony can all be ways of moving into a higher consciousness and letting go of the past. The world is filled with various methods of moving on. I think there is value in consciously releasing harmful or inappropriate ways of life.

But this nonsense of needing to tell some man your sins in order for GOD to forgive is just craziness.

The whole shunning, shame, guilt, condemn, stuff is unhealthy to one's physical, emotional, and spiritual life! IMHO, that is~ ;-)

Seriously... like a God of the Universe set up such a system. "I won't forgive you, help you live a better life, or support you in your spiritual journey unless you tell this neighbor man who thinks he has authority over you." I don't think so!

~dancer~