Environmental Subjects, or Objects?

[_Roger Morrison]

A lot of interesting discussion on the "Questions of Belief" thread. Obviously "beliefs" do effect behaviour. However, it seems 'choice' comes into play with "belief". One can choose, or not to "believe", with consequences that run from zilch to dire.

OTOH, there is no choice when subject to the Natural Environment.

Simplistically, as an object we freeze to death on one end of the temperature scale and die of heat-stroke on the other. Believing you might or might not is, while not irrelevant, it is not as motivating as KNOWING the effects of temperature on any object. Experience has taught us how to best deal with our Natural Environment.

In that we have slowly evolved to enjoy an increasing abundance of the fruits of KNOWLEDGE, and have unquestioned dependence upon the laws predicated to the expectant fruits. Primitive magics and fears no longer govern our pysical lives as before...

BUT, it seems, socially and personally, generally speaking, humanity still suffers fears, anxieties, psyche pains, abuses and injustice--not to the same degree as in the past--yet to be remedied.

I respectfully suggest those undesireable social elements are the result of NATURAL CAUSES, and ENVIRONMENT. When understood as such, and dealt with intelligently, rather than in ignorance and denial of the laws of cause-&-effect, they too will become relics of the dark ages.

Ray, in his blog, well describes fearful conditions that are not unique to OZ. They are universal because their causes are as universal as thermodynamics and hyperthermia.

As those factors stand outside of religion, so too do human factors. They too are more subject to science than to religious/theological dogma.

When religion takes its place with theatre, and community centres serving in this life, rather than in preparation for some imagined existance, and lets science, following "God's" natural laws, do its thing...maybe then, we'll enjoy the promises of the beatitudes... Warm regards, Roger

[Guest]

It took me a few reads through to understand (I think, at least) this post.

Society still does suffer the social ills of “anxieties, psyche pains, abuses and injustices.”

From the post I think you are suggesting that the solutions to these ‘problems’ are more likely to come from increasing the understanding of these problems through science. After reading I got the idea that perhaps calculated changes in our environments could eliminate these ills. Interior design, for example, can produce rooms that provoke certain types of feelings. Ventilation, colouring, etc. effect the feelings that will be produced.

“…human factors. They too are more subject to science than to religious/theological dogma.”

This is where personal experience comes in. I understand (I think and hope) the plan of salvation. After I began to understand this I noticed some changes in my life. I can still report that the social ills you mentioned still exist in my life. Many related ‘ills’ are less prevalent, though. Here are my speculative reasons as to why:
- Understanding the plan of salvation directly caused a decrease in these feelings and made them go away. I think this is unlikely.
- Understanding the plan of salvation made me choose to avoid situations that I knew would cause those feelings. I think this is the more part of the change. I think I began to avoid the causes of these problems more because of a change in priorities and point of view. My knowledge about how I work has increased and it has sort of developed into a personal science.

The natural environment affects how we feel and causes a predetermined reaction. Beliefs, motivations and desires affect how we choose to use our experience to bring about the desired effects of different environments.

Personally speaking, belief in ‘religion’, and living accordingly, has caused decrease in mental pain. Popular thought among many people my age, for some reason, feels this makes religion bad (religion has a bad connotation to them and they accuse it as being a drug, meanwhile defending the benefits of their vices). I also think it will cause blessings in the future ‘imagined existence’. My experience includes a positive reaction in the now, as well as a hoped for positive effect in the future.

And a question about drugs. Do you think that science will develop drugs that eliminate mental pain? I am specifically thinking about the drug ‘soma’ in the book “A Brave New World”. Would we want all mental anguish eliminated? Would that be good or healthy? As well, would we want to have that mental anguish eliminated more by an outside influence than from inner choices? Would it be best to have it imposed on us by a drug, or created by us through good choices?

[_Dr. Shades]

Roger, maybe I'm just too slow on the uptake, but what specific course of action are you advocating here?

[_Roger Morrison]

Quaker thanks for your response--and perseverance :-) You seem to understand the basics of my thought in what you say below:

From the post I think you are suggesting that the solutions to these ‘problems’ are more likely to come from increasing the understanding of these problems through science. YES After reading I got the idea that perhaps calculated changes in our environments could eliminate these ills. YES (Bolded added by RM)

But not by mind-manipulation as you assumed. You go no to say:

This is where personal experience comes in. I understand (I think and hope) the plan of salvation. After I began to understand this I noticed some changes in my life. I can still report that the social ills you mentioned still exist in my life. Many related ‘ills’ are less prevalent, though. Here are my speculative reasons as to why:
- Understanding the plan of salvation directly caused a decrease in these feelings and made them go away. I think this is unlikely.
- Understanding the plan of salvation made me choose to avoid situations that I knew would cause those feelings. I think this is the more part of the change. I think I began to avoid the causes of these problems more because of a change in priorities and point of view. My knowledge about how I work has increased and it has sort of developed into a personal science. (Bold added to be read as one sentence. As well the ULd RM)

Congrats on your discovery! Your path to this happened through your understanding of "the plan of salvation". That others find their awareness/understanding from other sources, no less validates the principles of discovery and acceptance of the empirical involved. You go on to say:

The natural environment affects how we feel and causes a predetermined reaction. Beliefs, motivations and desires affect how we choose to use our experience to bring about the desired effects of different environments

Yes, being cold, put on a coat. But... "...beliefs, motivations and desires..." are also 'effects' of "environment". That environment found in homes, communities, and institutions condition both desireable and undesireable reactions, and responses to circumstances encountered in society.

Physical scientists, etc. advise on the natural/material environment accurately enough that we step onto planes and read labels. OTOH, behavioural and developmental scientists, we tend to ignore, generally speaking, because of the previously mentioned "conditioning" of homes, etal. It is these sources of misinformation--not that all is misinformation--that needs attending to. Most difficult to do because of traditions and resistance to change that sees no immediate reward.

And a question about drugs. Do you think that science will develop drugs that eliminate mental pain? RM: I think they have. I am specifically thinking about the drug ‘soma’ in the book “A Brave New World”. Would we want all mental anguish eliminated? RM: I need more defininition of "anguish". Would that be good or healthy? As well, would we want to have that mental anguish eliminated more by an outside influence than from inner choices? RM: I suggest more as an intelligent decision. Would it be best to have it imposed on us by a drug, or created by us through good choices? RM: I wouldn't, for example, want to see medical/drug treatment of bi-polar conditions dropped because of some negative conotations attached to the term, "drugs".

You tend to be addressing the general state of personal, and social negatives from a corrective--rather than a preventitive--point of view. Understandably so, as to this point there has been little consideration given to the causes, generally speaking, "we". As well, not a lot of agreement re the remedies... Warm regards, Roger

[_Roger Morrison]

Roger, maybe I'm just too slow on the uptake, but what specific course of action are you advocating here?

Doc, nah, it's more my difficulty with the set-down...

Maybe my attempted explaination to Quaker helped a bit??

OK, narrowed to THE SPECIFIC, I advocate "better education". Joe said, "...can't be saved in ignorance..." Pretty fundamental. To get anything right you have to learn the skill and practice the craft, or it "don't work!"

Seems obvious when we see human functionality not-working within individual lives, neighborhoods, or nations, there have to be reasons... In physical sciences we seem to be more objective in remedying failures and evolving prototypes--the tin-lizzy--to precision working models--BMWs--possibly unimagined by the original inventor.

However, the more important world of personal/human relations has not received the same close scrutiny as to its 'products'. Many reasons--good and poor--can be put forth for this. For now, set them aside...

EDUCATION must move quickly from its more current purpose of preparing folks for jobs, shaping them for the economy, to preparing folks for life in an expanding and dispararate humanity. Today's folks must become wary of perils of the market place, and their easy entrapment into a life of servitude in persuit of an ever increasing supply of toys and promoted escapism.

Education is not a total failure, or things wouldn't be as good s they are--for some. And yes, churches attempt, as always, to improve individuals, with some positive results. Reading your blog, i sense your satisfaction seeing that happen.

I think it essential to teach, without prejudice, from early elementary classes such things as child development, parenting, human relations, environmentalism, the significance of limited resources--financial and natural, the laws of cause & effect as experienced and evidenced in society. The wrongs of war. Honest world and national history. Debunking of legends and myths.

This is not to frighten. It is to heighten awareness, and demonstrate one's personal responsibility to make informed/wise choices--not in ignorance--starting at a young age. Self assured and confident i believe they will find it easier to avoid those things that tend to comfort those uncertain of their place in life.

Hope the above helped clarify my thoughts... Warm regards, Roger

[_Roger Morrison]

This might be futile but, i just read the phrase: "...existing, but sense invisible..." in "Earth's Next Fifty Years", L.H. LaRouche, Jr.

I can apply that to my thoughts in the OP re society, in general, missing the connection between 'existing' state of conditions but not 'sensing' the invisible, to them, causes. Merrily continuing to do "every thing i/we could". Oblivious to the invisible, in ignorance. Confusing symptoms with causes...

Does that help? "...it's there but being missed..." Warm regards, Roger