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Posted: **Thu Nov 29, 2007 1:33 pm**

We've had some disucssion as of late concerning the origin of the Native Americans and their ancestry.

In another thread, Brent mentioned the 1845 Proclamation of the Twelve Apostles, which is quite an enlightening read.

In addition to clear teachings about the Nativie Americans, the whole article is informative so I thought I would share a link to the entire document in case anyone is interested.

http://www.splendidsun.com/files/proclamation_1845.htm

I've quoted just the beginning but the whole article is worth a glance!

OF THE TWELVE APOSTLES OF THE CHURCH OF Jesus Christ OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS.

To all the Kings of the World;
To the President of the United States of America;
To the Governors of the several States;
And to the Rulers and People of all Nations:
Greeting:

KNOW ye:-

that the kingdom of God has come: as has been predicted by ancient prophets, and prayed for in all ages; even that kingdom which shall fill the whole earth, and shall stand for ever.

The great Elohim, Jehovah, has been pleased once more to speak from the heavens: and also to commune with man upon the earth, by means of open visions, and by the ministration of HOLY MESSENGERS.

By this means the great and eternal High Priesthood, after the order of his Son, even the Apostleship, has been restored; or returned to the earth.

This High Priesthood or Apostleship, holds the keys of the kingdom of God, and power to bind on earth that which shall be bound in heaven, and to loose on earth that which shall be loosed in heaven; and, in fine, to do, and to administer in all things pertaining to the ordinances, organization, government and direction of the kingdom of God.

Being established in these last days for the restoration of all things spoken by the prophets since the world began, and in order to prepare the way for the coming of the Son of Man.

And we now bear witness that his coming is near at hand; and not many years hence, the nations and their kings shall see him coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

In order to meet this great event, there must needs be a preparation.

Therefore we send unto you, with authority from on high, and command you all to repent and humble yourselves as little children, before the majesty of the Holy One; and come unto Jesus with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, and be baptized in his name, for the remission of sins (that is, be buried in the water in the likeness of his burial and rise again to newness of life, in the likeness of his resurrection), and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, through the laying on of the hands of the Apostles and elders, of this great and last dispensation of mercy to man.

This Spirit shall bear witness to you, of the truth of our testimony, and shall enlighten your minds, and be in you as the spirit of prophecy and revelation. It shall bring things past to your understanding and remembrance, and shall show you things to come.

It shall also impart unto you many great and glorious gifts; such as the gift of healing the sick, and of being healed, by the laying on of hands in the name of Jesus; and of expelling demons; and even of seeing visions, and conversing with Angels and spirits from the unseen world.

By the light of this Spirit, received through the ministration of the ordinances—by the power and authority of the Holy Apostleship and Priesthood, you will be enabled to understand, and to be the children of light; and thus be prepared to escape all the things that are coming on the earth, and so stand before the Son of Man.

We testify that the foregoing doctrine is the doctrine or gospel of Jesus Christ, in its fullness; and that it is the only true, everlasting, and unchangeable gospel; and the only plan revealed on earth whereby man can be saved.

We also bear testimony that the "Indians" (so called) of North and South America are a remnant of the tribes of Israel, as is now made manifest by the discovery and revelation of their ancient oracles and records.

And that they are about to be fathered, civilized, and made one nation in this glorious land.

They will also come to the knowledge of their forefathers, and of the fulness of the gospel; and they will embrace it, and become a righteous branch of the house of Israel.

And we further testify........

Also...

He has revealed the origin and the records of the aboriginal tribes of America, and their future destiny.—And we know it.

(Bold mine)

Quite a read!

~dancer~

Posted: **Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:49 pm**

Nice reference, Dancer.

There would be a number of blinded individuals that will say that Woodruff wasn't a prophet and not authorized to say what he did. As I recall, he also testified by way of pamphlet in 1852 that poligamy was not practiced in the church when he had several Mormon mistresses at the time.

Bottom line, he got the information from the top as did all other true believers. That fact is all too clear to me. One of the few things I could hang my hat on was that Lamanites were the Native Americans.

That foundation was of clay and iron.

For all the Mormons out there, this is a test. Not of faith, but of basic intellect.

This seemingly very small lie may be what will finally expose the trainwreck of Mormonism for what it is.

Posted: **Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:54 pm**

Thanks from me, too, TD. I need to read more about the pre-Utah history of the church as my current knowledge is pretty much centered on the reign of BY.

I have one quick question about the phrase, "The great Elohim, Jehovah, has been pleased once more..." Are not Elohim and Jehovah distinct and different personages within Mormon belief? Or is this a usage of "elohim" as a generic term for "god?" Or is this Jehovah not Jesus Christ? Or what? Is this divine "speaking" spoken of here supposed to be from God the Father or from Jesus/Jehovah? And does it matter?

While the document is of interest in terms of the Lamanite Question, its also interesting to me as a millennialist proclamation. Both the millennialist aspects of Mormonism in the early church and in the present one are fascinating. It strikes me at first glance that while the importance of this is encoded in the name of the church (latter day), in practical terms the belief kind of comes and goes in daily importance: I'm thinking of the resurrection of the concept in the Reformation in a kind of militaristic mode vs. the rather background status of the idea at other times. Of course millennialism is always a feature of the more fundamentalist tendencies in Mormonism: there is a current thread over on MAD that is astonishing (at least to me) in its cruel glee over the imminence of the "winding up" (starting in a few weeks according to some).

Posted: **Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:44 pm**

the article reinforces the differences between the 1845 Mormonism and the 2007-8 version... what is taught in chapels, in classes, and over the pulpit during GC is a streamlined, PR polished, dumbed down, twisted version of the original. I think the brethren today are so afraid to offend or confuse members with fragile testimonies with the meat of their past prophets, they have created a near vegan diet of Christian lifestyle and family fluff..

the devil is in the details.. I easily counted 20 factoids/doctrines that no longer receive any air time or print in church.. all of these principles were the MILK to the 1845 Mormon -- the meaty discussions revolved around the temple - adam/god - gnosticism - plurality of wives - plurality of gods - deification - endowments - 2nd endowments - calling and election made sure - personal visitation from Christ - and the ilk...

Posted: **Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:27 pm**

We also bear testimony that....

They, "the 'Indians' of North and South America" are about to be fathered, civilized, and made one nation in this glorious land.

They will also come to the knowledge of their forefathers, and of the fulness of the gospel; and they will embrace it, and become a righteous branch of the house of Israel.

Neither of these two things have happened to tribes of the US and Canada, despite the best efforts of the Church. If it has come true for Mexico and some in South America but not for others, it could lead you to wonder if US, Canadian and other tribes are properly called "Lamanites." Even the conversion of Central and South American people (which has been relatively significant compared to other parts of the world, but still behind the rate of conversion originally achieved by Catholics and now by competing Protestants) does not come close to meeting "...about to be... made one nation...."

Again, overblown claims.

This is why the church has cut off butcher service to its members and now only operates a dairy.

Posted: **Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:57 pm**

The Dude wrote:
We also bear testimony that....

They, "the 'Indians' of North and South America" are about to be fathered, civilized, and made one nation in this glorious land.

They will also come to the knowledge of their forefathers, and of the fulness of the gospel; and they will embrace it, and become a righteous branch of the house of Israel.

Neither of these two things have happened to tribes of the US and Canada, despite the best efforts of the Church. If it has come true for Mexico and some in South America but not for others, it could lead you to wonder if US, Canadian and other tribes are properly called "Lamanites." Even the conversion of Central and South American people (which has been relatively significant compared to other parts of the world, but still behind the rate of conversion originally achieved by Catholics and now by competing Protestants) does not come close to meeting "...about to be... made one nation...."

Again, overblown claims.

This is why the church has cut off butcher service to its members and now only operates a dairy.

Tme lines have always been confusing for the non-believers.

And it isn't the quantity, but the quality. As recently as this month, the Ensign has a article where the Abrahamic covenant is spoken of.

There is a gathering going on. Those who will obey the Lord are being gathered out. It isn't going to be every single descendant of the Lamanites.

Posted: **Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:08 pm**

charity wrote:
The Dude wrote:
We also bear testimony that....

They, "the 'Indians' of North and South America" are about to be fathered, civilized, and made one nation in this glorious land.

They will also come to the knowledge of their forefathers, and of the fulness of the gospel; and they will embrace it, and become a righteous branch of the house of Israel.

Neither of these two things have happened to tribes of the US and Canada, despite the best efforts of the Church. If it has come true for Mexico and some in South America but not for others, it could lead you to wonder if US, Canadian and other tribes are properly called "Lamanites." Even the conversion of Central and South American people (which has been relatively significant compared to other parts of the world, but still behind the rate of conversion originally achieved by Catholics and now by competing Protestants) does not come close to meeting "...about to be... made one nation...."

Again, overblown claims.

This is why the church has cut off butcher service to its members and now only operates a dairy.

Tme lines have always been confusing for the non-believers.

And it isn't the quantity, but the quality. As recently as this month, the Ensign has a article where the Abrahamic covenant is spoken of.

There is a gathering going on. Those who will obey the Lord are being gathered out. It isn't going to be every single descendant of the Lamanites.

Quality, huh? This explains the 20% or less retention rate of new Mormon converts.

You've evidently never served a mission.

By and large "quality" folk don't give the Missionaries the time of day--for good reason.

Mormon missions world-wide have always pushed quantity over quality. Always have, always will (maybe with a few exceptions). It's the "stone rolling forth" don't ya know?

Posted: **Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:22 pm**

Hi Blixa,

This proclamation is an eye-opener isn't it?

I have one quick question about the phrase, "The great Elohim, Jehovah, has been pleased once more..." Are not Elohim and Jehovah distinct and different personages within Mormon belief? Or is this a usage of "elohim" as a generic term for "god?" Or is this Jehovah not Jesus Christ? Or what? Is this divine "speaking" spoken of here supposed to be from God the Father or from Jesus/Jehovah? And does it matter?

I could be wrong here but my understanding is that at the time of the proclamation, Elohim and Jehovah were considered one and the same Diety in LDS doctrine. I'm not sure when the separation came, (I think around the time the Lectures on Faith were removed from the Book of Commandments), but my experience has been that yes, today in the LDS church, Elohim is considered God the father, and Jehovah, Jesus Christ.

Hopefully there is an expert who can add further light to this change? :-)

~dancer~

Posted: **Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:31 pm**

Blixa wrote:Thanks from me, too, TD. I need to read more about the pre-Utah history of the church as my current knowledge is pretty much centered on the reign of BY.

I have one quick question about the phrase, "The great Elohim, Jehovah, has been pleased once more..." Are not Elohim and Jehovah distinct and different personages within Mormon belief? Or is this a usage of "elohim" as a generic term for "god?" Or is this Jehovah not Jesus Christ? Or what? Is this divine "speaking" spoken of here supposed to be from God the Father or from Jesus/Jehovah? And does it matter?

In current LDS thought/belief Elohim/Eloheim generally refers to G-d the Father and Jehovah to Christ. This was not always the case though, and in the early church there are instances of Jehovah being used for G-d the Father. I don't believe the current usage was firmly established until the early 1900s (If I recall correctly).

Posted: **Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:37 pm**

Doctor Steuss wrote:In current LDS thought/belief Elohim/Eloheim generally refers to G-d the Father and Jehovah to Christ. This was not always the case though, and in the early church there are instances of Jehovah being used for G-d the Father. I don't believe the current usage was firmly established until the early 1900s (If I recall correctly).

http://farms.BYU.edu/display.php?table=review&id=474
The section on "The Names of God" goes over the history of the Elohim/Jehovah dilly a bit.

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What are the Native Americans - Take II

What are the Native Americans - Take II