this is one of the reasons why religion is dangerous

Post by **_Sethbag** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:09 am

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22032266/

The story linked about is about a 14-year old boy who just died after refusing a blood transfusion because it would make him unclean and unworthy. He's a Jehovah's Witness. Apparently his birth parents weren't currently his legal guardians, and they wanted him to have the transfusions. The article doesn't explicitly say so, but I suspect that his aunt, a devout Jehovah's Witness, was the legal guardian at the time. Maybe if someone sees a reference to this somewhere else it will say just how that worked.

Anyhow, the state tried to get a ruling from a judge that the boy should have the transfusions against his wishes, but the judge denied the state's attempt, ruling that the boy was mature and competent enough to know what he was doing.

Well he's dead now. Congratulations, all those who advocate faith in Bronze Age goatherder mythology and morality. It's the advocacy of such superstition and belief which allows the more "out there" forms of it to have their toll. This kid was taught by a bunch of adults who believed in absurd superstition that the health choice that could save his life would make him unworthy in God's eyes, and this kid is dead now from following their advice.

Well, thankfully Jehovah will restore him from backup after Armageddon and he can inherit an acre or two in Paradise on Earth. Bully for him.

Post by **_beastie** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:24 am

This is how I interpreted Dawkin's main point, as well - that the moderate and even liberal religions were complicit in the creation of the extremist religions that most agree are dangerous. He is persuasive. All religion does seem to create the necessary slope for the slipping to begin - the idea of a deity communicating clearly enough with human beings to justify action. That is the slippery slope.

A read a rebuttal somewhere (may have been trevor on this board, can't remember) that argued instead that we should simply address the real problem - bad reasoning, no matter in what context it occurs. That makes a lot of sense too, but the problem is that religion seems to contain so much bad reasoning it may not be possible to salvage.

But certainly this stories make one sick. (and the idea of a 14 year being mature enough to make a life/death decision is laughable and based in ignorance in regards to the development of the human mind).

Post by **_charity** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:53 am

beastie wrote:. . . . (and the idea of a 14 year being mature enough to make a life/death decision is laughable and based in ignorance in regards to the development of the human mind).

I agree with you here. And 14 year olds aren't old enough to decide about becoming sexually active, and taking birth control, and getting abortions, either. But our society has decided they are. Makes a person sick, all right.

Post by **_Jason Bourne** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:01 am

Well gee. Let's examine all the atrocities that dictators that were atheists, such as Stalin, perpetrated on the world. I suspect that the millions he killed were a few more then the JWs that die because of their religious belief. Sorry man, but adhernets to atheism has posed more threat and perpetrated more death on man kind then religion has, by far.

Post by **_Yong Xi** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:27 am

charity wrote:
beastie wrote:. . . . (and the idea of a 14 year being mature enough to make a life/death decision is laughable and based in ignorance in regards to the development of the human mind).

I agree with you here. And 14 year olds aren't old enough to decide about becoming sexually active, and taking birth control, and getting abortions, either. But our society has decided they are. Makes a person sick, all right.

I agree with this. It strikes me odd, though, that an eight year old is considered mature enough to choose their religion (LDS). Do they choose it?

Post by **_charity** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:24 am

Yong Xi wrote:
charity wrote:
beastie wrote:. . . . (and the idea of a 14 year being mature enough to make a life/death decision is laughable and based in ignorance in regards to the development of the human mind).

I agree with you here. And 14 year olds aren't old enough to decide about becoming sexually active, and taking birth control, and getting abortions, either. But our society has decided they are. Makes a person sick, all right.

I agree with this. It strikes me odd, though, that an eight year old is considered mature enough to choose their religion (LDS). Do they choose it?

Yes, they do. But they can always "unchose" it if they want. And all they will have "suffered" is moral teachings that help them not have the problems common to many other kids growing up. They are taught not to smoke, drink, do drugs, engage in premaritcal sex. They are taught to be of service to their fellowman, to speak in public, to develop their talents. Sure hurts them for that early choice, doesn't it.

Post by **_Sethbag** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:53 am

They are taught that if they masturbate they are committing a sin 2nd only to murder. Young men living under such teachings are wracked with guilt, as nearly all of them in fact masturbate at that age. Yeah, let's fill our young mens' heads with powerful guilt, that's great.

Jason, the flaw in your logic is that none of that bit about Stalin absolves the JW teaching from killing that kid, and none of it absolves religion in general from fostering the kind of attitudes and permissiveness toward whacky ideas in the name of faith, that lead to this kind of thing. At best your argument is a sort of tu quoque, and at worst it's just completely irrelevant.

Post by **_Scottie** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:27 am

Yeah, this is almost as silly as it is to believe that 2 men dumping oil on your head, then laying their hands will actually help to cure any number of diseases.

At least LDS still believe in modern medicine.

I sure am glad the "better to come home in a pine box than lose your virtue" teaching didn't stick.

Post by **_ludwigm** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:22 am

Lev. 14: 4-7
4 Then shall the priest command to take for him that is to be cleansed two birds alive and clean, and cedar wood, and scarlet, and hyssop:
5 And the priest shall command that one of the birds be killed in an earthen vessel over running water:
6 As for the living bird, he shall take it, and the cedar wood, and the scarlet, and the hyssop, and shall dip them and the living bird in the blood of the bird that was killed over the running water:
7 And he shall sprinkle upon him that is to be cleansed from the leprosy seven times, and shall pronounce him clean, and shall let the living bird loose into the open field.

There are more...

Why the believers don't take all these counsels?

Post by **_Imwashingmypirate** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:36 am

Sethback I think the expression on your avater is the best expression I can give for this. I disagree that anyone of the age of 14 can make a decision. Things are all over the place and 14 year olds usually make the wrong decision especially when blinded by religion. It's a shame but I do often wonder if it is right to have advanced treatment done because it doesn't seem all that natural to extend ones life beyond what it should be but then I guess if there is a god and he want's us dead it will be regardless of our techniques that we be dead. So I say the should have shuvved the blood in him and told him to go say his hail Mary's or something. But that's life isn't it. What can you do?