In a recent thread I was taken to task for my characterization of Joseph Smith as someone who probably got what one would expect for the choices he made, some immoral, some stupid. In response I was given the usual granite-laden, sanctimonious hagiography about all the divine wonders Joseph achieved. I admitted than I had emphasized the negative, but pointed out that the respondent provided only glowing praise for Smith.
As a general corrective, I provide what I think is an insightful quote from reporter Lorenzo W. Milam:
"The Catholics are not the only sect to be cursed (or blessed) with a strange and contradictory history of teachings and practice. Those who read the early writings of Luther will find a man who was as violent and bad-tempered and as diabolical in vengeance as Joseph Smith. Those who investigate the early circumcision ceremonies in Judaism will find a very strange ritual indeed on the part of the rabbi. Those who seek the origins of the word "Quaker" will find tales of ritual madness in early church ceremonies. And those who are willing to read the early sayings of Billy Graham, Jerry Falwell, and Pat Robertson will find some amazing statements about "negroes," the blindness of the poor, or the exact nature of the divine. Because religion grows out of humans, it seems that the practice and words of the early leaders reveal more than they (or their followers) would want to remember concerning Divine Beliefs on the subject of hates, virulence, and egoism, not to say anti-social acts.
Most of the Mormons who are part of the "Modern" church tend to be officious and puritan. It is no accident that Howard Hughes in his last days relied on several followers of Smith to do his dirty work, because he knew they were honest, wouldn't get soused on the job, and would follow his every command. Richard Nixon relied on members of the Washington stake for much the same reason.
It is fun to look back at the wildness of a sect's early history: to realize (no matter how much they may deny it) that the early leaders were panderers and reprobates and miscreants (no more nor less than the rest of us). No matter how Holier Than Thou they may profess to be, we will always remember that Joseph Smith was not and is not the oversanitized, silver-plated, divinely-inspired character that they try to palm off on us, but was, instead, a goat-footed, inspired, temperamental, wild-eyed, extremely talented and organization-minded philanderer who was, indeed, so much more human than the mannikin they keep trying to thrust on us from out of the black hole of history."
Lorenzo Milam on Joseph Smith
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_Trevor
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Lorenzo Milam on Joseph Smith
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
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_Gazelam
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I listed in the "Charity are you serious" thread some of the writings and sermons of Joseph. But I'm sure what was really desired is some sort of comprehensive list on the doctrinal contributions. I wrote up a list like that a long time ago on this board, but the search engine for this board sems to be on the fritz at the moment. So here is a short version.
1) Because of Joseph Smith, we know that God is a personal being, that we are his spirit children, that he is a loving Father, and that we can approach him.
2) Because of Joseph Smith, we know the nature and purpose of our Fallen condition.
3) Because of Joseph Smith, we understand the true nature of the grace of both the Father and the Son and how we may be redeemed from the effects of Adam's fall.
4) Because of Joseph Smith, we know that we are members of the house of Israel and heirs to all the blessings promised to Abraham, Isacc, and Jacob.
5) Because of Joseph Smith, we know that we can, through the atoning blood of the Savior and by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel, become new creatures in Christ.
6) Because of Joseph Smith, we know that revelation has not ceased, that the heavens may be opened and the mysteries of God unfolded to our understanding.
7) Because of Joseph Smith, we know that life did not begin on this earth, that we existed in spirit form for eons, preparing for our experience in mortality and for those estates that follow.
8) Because of Joseph Smith, we know thre is purpose in life, that God has a plan for our happiness and fulfillment
9) Because of Joseph Smith, we enjoy a meaningful understanding of the world to come, the nature of its sociality, glory, and purpose.
10) Because of Joseph Smith, we know that the power of God has been delegated to men on the earth for the blessing of all humanity.
11) Because of Joseph Smith, we know that the saving principles of the gospel will be taught to all who died without the opportunity to hear them while in the flesh and that in holy temples the ordinances essential to their salvation can be performed in their behalf.
12) Because of Joseph Smith and the authority restored to him, we know that the family unit will be preserved throughout the eternities, that love truly becomes eternal and the privileges of fatherhood and motherhood continue through al generations of time.
In the words of Elder Pratt:
He has organized the kingdom of God. - We will extend its dominion.
He has restored the fulness of the Gospel. - We will spread it abroad.
He has laid the foundation of Nauvoo. - We will build it up.
He has laid the foundation of the Temple. - We will build up the top-stone with shouting.
He has kindled a fire. - We will fan the flame.
He has kindled up the dawn of a day of glory. - We will bring it to its meridian splendour.
He was a "little one", and became a thousand. We are a small one, and wil become a strong nation.
In short, he quarried the stone from the mountain; we will cause it to become a great mountain and fill the whole earth.
(Millennial Star, 5:151-52.)
1) Because of Joseph Smith, we know that God is a personal being, that we are his spirit children, that he is a loving Father, and that we can approach him.
2) Because of Joseph Smith, we know the nature and purpose of our Fallen condition.
3) Because of Joseph Smith, we understand the true nature of the grace of both the Father and the Son and how we may be redeemed from the effects of Adam's fall.
4) Because of Joseph Smith, we know that we are members of the house of Israel and heirs to all the blessings promised to Abraham, Isacc, and Jacob.
5) Because of Joseph Smith, we know that we can, through the atoning blood of the Savior and by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel, become new creatures in Christ.
6) Because of Joseph Smith, we know that revelation has not ceased, that the heavens may be opened and the mysteries of God unfolded to our understanding.
7) Because of Joseph Smith, we know that life did not begin on this earth, that we existed in spirit form for eons, preparing for our experience in mortality and for those estates that follow.
8) Because of Joseph Smith, we know thre is purpose in life, that God has a plan for our happiness and fulfillment
9) Because of Joseph Smith, we enjoy a meaningful understanding of the world to come, the nature of its sociality, glory, and purpose.
10) Because of Joseph Smith, we know that the power of God has been delegated to men on the earth for the blessing of all humanity.
11) Because of Joseph Smith, we know that the saving principles of the gospel will be taught to all who died without the opportunity to hear them while in the flesh and that in holy temples the ordinances essential to their salvation can be performed in their behalf.
12) Because of Joseph Smith and the authority restored to him, we know that the family unit will be preserved throughout the eternities, that love truly becomes eternal and the privileges of fatherhood and motherhood continue through al generations of time.
In the words of Elder Pratt:
He has organized the kingdom of God. - We will extend its dominion.
He has restored the fulness of the Gospel. - We will spread it abroad.
He has laid the foundation of Nauvoo. - We will build it up.
He has laid the foundation of the Temple. - We will build up the top-stone with shouting.
He has kindled a fire. - We will fan the flame.
He has kindled up the dawn of a day of glory. - We will bring it to its meridian splendour.
He was a "little one", and became a thousand. We are a small one, and wil become a strong nation.
In short, he quarried the stone from the mountain; we will cause it to become a great mountain and fill the whole earth.
(Millennial Star, 5:151-52.)
Last edited by Steeler [Crawler] on Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
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_the road to hana
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Gazelam--
If you're going to use this thread to respond to that call for references, then answer this. How many of the above statements you made represented Joseph Smith stating something new that did not already previously exist (if you know)?
If you said, for example, "Because of Joseph Smith, we know that the earth revolves around the Sun," would that be correct?
How many of the above do we know solely because of Joseph Smith, and how many of your statements pre-exist Joseph Smith and were not unique to him?
If you're going to use this thread to respond to that call for references, then answer this. How many of the above statements you made represented Joseph Smith stating something new that did not already previously exist (if you know)?
If you said, for example, "Because of Joseph Smith, we know that the earth revolves around the Sun," would that be correct?
How many of the above do we know solely because of Joseph Smith, and how many of your statements pre-exist Joseph Smith and were not unique to him?
The road is beautiful, treacherous, and full of twists and turns.
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_Trevor
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Gazelam wrote:I listed in the suicide thread some of the writings and sermons of Joseph. But I'm sure what was really desired is some sort of comprehensive list on the doctrinal contributions. I wrote up a list like that a long time ago on this board, but the search engine for this board sems to be on the fritz at the moment. So here is a short version.
What an amazing thread-jack.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
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_Gazelam
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Trevor wrote:Gazelam wrote:I listed in the "Charity are you serious" thread some of the writings and sermons of Joseph. But I'm sure what was really desired is some sort of comprehensive list on the doctrinal contributions. I wrote up a list like that a long time ago on this board, but the search engine for this board sems to be on the fritz at the moment. So here is a short version.
What an amazing thread-jack.
I had no intention of highjacking your thread, I felt the subject matter was the same, the character and contributions of Joseph Smith. I think a good measure of his character would be his contributions to Christianity.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
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_Gazelam
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Hana,
Well, lets look at a few:
1) Because of Joseph Smith, we know that God is a personal being, that we are his spirit children, that he is a loving Father, and that we can approach him.
What view did the world have of God before the First Vision? A monstrous doctrine of Trinity, a God who is composed of three beings in one, unknowable, invisible, unapproachable, incomprehensible.
In just the opening moments of this dispensation, more knowledge concerning God was poured out than 1400 years of Catholic teachings had placed in the hands of man. A Man and his Son stood before the prophet. He could see them as one man could see another, and they spoke and instructed the Prophet personally. As time went on and more doctrine was revealed, we learned that we really and truly are more than mere creations of God, we are his children, and all that that understanding entails.
2) Because of Joseph Smith, we know the nature and purpose of our Fallen condition.
I answered this in Jersey Girls thread regarding the Fall. I will post a link.
http://mormondiscussions.com/discuss/vi ... 6249#96249
3) Because of Joseph Smith, we understand the true nature of the grace of both the Father and the Son and how we may be redeemed from the effects of Adam's fall.
See above
Is there one item in particular you'd like to discuss before I just start going through all these?
How many of the above statements you made represented Joseph Smith stating something new that did not already previously exist (if you know)?
Well, lets look at a few:
1) Because of Joseph Smith, we know that God is a personal being, that we are his spirit children, that he is a loving Father, and that we can approach him.
What view did the world have of God before the First Vision? A monstrous doctrine of Trinity, a God who is composed of three beings in one, unknowable, invisible, unapproachable, incomprehensible.
In just the opening moments of this dispensation, more knowledge concerning God was poured out than 1400 years of Catholic teachings had placed in the hands of man. A Man and his Son stood before the prophet. He could see them as one man could see another, and they spoke and instructed the Prophet personally. As time went on and more doctrine was revealed, we learned that we really and truly are more than mere creations of God, we are his children, and all that that understanding entails.
2) Because of Joseph Smith, we know the nature and purpose of our Fallen condition.
I answered this in Jersey Girls thread regarding the Fall. I will post a link.
http://mormondiscussions.com/discuss/vi ... 6249#96249
3) Because of Joseph Smith, we understand the true nature of the grace of both the Father and the Son and how we may be redeemed from the effects of Adam's fall.
See above
Is there one item in particular you'd like to discuss before I just start going through all these?
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
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_the road to hana
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Trevor wrote:Gazelam wrote:I listed in the suicide thread some of the writings and sermons of Joseph. But I'm sure what was really desired is some sort of comprehensive list on the doctrinal contributions. I wrote up a list like that a long time ago on this board, but the search engine for this board sems to be on the fritz at the moment. So here is a short version.
What an amazing thread-jack.
Trevor I am tempted to respond to Gazalem. I think he has been sold, for a high price. things he already possessed. However you are hoping a different direction to the thread. Which?
I was noticing the Nixon connection referenced in the article but I do not know what activities LDS were involved in. I was left thinking that villian Nixon grew more respectable with time. Perhaps people with power get a golden patina as they age unless they cross a line to become great historical villians, a thing which many seriously flawed individuals never do.
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_huckelberry
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Trevor, perhaps you are thinking of another thing.
There are some things about Joseph Smith which are rather attractive. He is an adventerous and imaginative individual. As a teenager roaming about the woods in search of treasure and tales. He is an individual who loves to question and rethink issues. He is completely unbounded by convention. Chutzpah. In spades. How can one not have a bit of an urge to wink back at that smile?
doesn't leave a lot of space for his followers to do the same however.
There are some things about Joseph Smith which are rather attractive. He is an adventerous and imaginative individual. As a teenager roaming about the woods in search of treasure and tales. He is an individual who loves to question and rethink issues. He is completely unbounded by convention. Chutzpah. In spades. How can one not have a bit of an urge to wink back at that smile?
doesn't leave a lot of space for his followers to do the same however.
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Thanks to Joseph Smith, we know that whatever the Lord commands is right, no matter what it is. Likewise, we know from Joseph Smith that it will always be a man on Earth who tells us just what it is that the Lord commands. From 1830 to 1844, that man was Joseph Smith.
What would it have been like to have been a man who, in his own mind, was literally the only man on earth who was truly free? Everyone on Earth, if he took his "mantle" seriously, was bound to listen to and obey him as God's servant, and nobody on Earth was in a position to tell him jack squat. He had thousands of followers to back him up, many of them (the Danites) sworn to defend and uphold him no matter what.
What was it like for Joseph Smith to have a young, buxom, pretty-faced woman brought into his room for a private interview, and then, with a somber demeanor, to tell her that God had given her to him as part of the restoration of the pattern of marriage shown by Old Testament prophets. And then for her to be nervous, wring her hands, look away, blush, perhaps even cry a little, but after a little pushing, and prodding, maybe telling her that God would kill him if she wouldn't marry him, or that her whole family's salvation would be guaranteed if she would consent, or maybe explaining to her that as God's prophet, whatever you told her she should accept as right because God was telling it to her through him, she consents. What a rush! What was it like? The adrenaline. The move in, the push for the finish line, the victory! She's accepted! She didn't want to, but she came around alright, just like 30 or 40 of the women he'd previously done this to. Damn, this never gets old, does it? And oh boy, here comes Brigham and Heber for the secret ceremony. Ok, the ceremony's over. Heber's set up a room for us in the back.
Next morning. Darling, was it good for you too? I had a great time. What's your name again? I have your number, I'll call you sometime.
Next weekend. Young 30somethingth bride of Joseph Smith hears a rumor from her best friend that Joseph has just married some new girl. She sees them both converge on Brother Brigham's house. Later on Brother Brigham and Heber come back out and leave, but Joseph and that new girl don't. Until the next morning. She sees that new girl the next day at the dry goods shop. She looks numb. Shell-shocked. Was it good for her too?
What would it have been like to have been a man who, in his own mind, was literally the only man on earth who was truly free? Everyone on Earth, if he took his "mantle" seriously, was bound to listen to and obey him as God's servant, and nobody on Earth was in a position to tell him jack squat. He had thousands of followers to back him up, many of them (the Danites) sworn to defend and uphold him no matter what.
What was it like for Joseph Smith to have a young, buxom, pretty-faced woman brought into his room for a private interview, and then, with a somber demeanor, to tell her that God had given her to him as part of the restoration of the pattern of marriage shown by Old Testament prophets. And then for her to be nervous, wring her hands, look away, blush, perhaps even cry a little, but after a little pushing, and prodding, maybe telling her that God would kill him if she wouldn't marry him, or that her whole family's salvation would be guaranteed if she would consent, or maybe explaining to her that as God's prophet, whatever you told her she should accept as right because God was telling it to her through him, she consents. What a rush! What was it like? The adrenaline. The move in, the push for the finish line, the victory! She's accepted! She didn't want to, but she came around alright, just like 30 or 40 of the women he'd previously done this to. Damn, this never gets old, does it? And oh boy, here comes Brigham and Heber for the secret ceremony. Ok, the ceremony's over. Heber's set up a room for us in the back.
Next morning. Darling, was it good for you too? I had a great time. What's your name again? I have your number, I'll call you sometime.
Next weekend. Young 30somethingth bride of Joseph Smith hears a rumor from her best friend that Joseph has just married some new girl. She sees them both converge on Brother Brigham's house. Later on Brother Brigham and Heber come back out and leave, but Joseph and that new girl don't. Until the next morning. She sees that new girl the next day at the dry goods shop. She looks numb. Shell-shocked. Was it good for her too?
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen