MAD thread question for Beastie

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_Scottie
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MAD thread question for Beastie

Post by _Scottie »

On MAD, there is a thread Book of Mormon, Barley measurements! --Pundits? started by grego.

For a pundit to check out, and of general interest to other readers, I imagine:


I remember reading about measurements in a Book of Mormon paper, but I don't remember anything about this (though I could be wrong):

We see that the Nephites had many different kinds of grain:

Mosiah 7:22 And all this he did, for the sole purpose of bringing this people into subjection or into bondage. And behold, we at this time do pay tribute to the king of the Lamanites, to the amount of one half of our corn, and our barley, and even all our grain of every kind, and one half of the increase of our flocks and our herds; and even one half of all we have or possess the king of the Lamanites doth exact of us, or our lives.

Yet, it seems that their measurements were based particularly on the barley seed:

Alma 11:4 Now these are the names of the different pieces of their gold, and of their silver, according to their value. And the names are given by the Nephites, for they did not reckon after the manner of the Jews who were at Jerusalem; neither did they measure after the manner of the Jews; but they altered their reckoning and their measure, according to the minds and the circumstances of the people, in every generation, until the reign of the judges, they having been established by king Mosiah.
...
Alma 11:7 A senum of silver was equal to a senine of gold, and either for a measure of barley, and also for a measure of every kind of grain.
...
Alma 11:14 Now this is the value of the lesser numbers of their reckoning--

Alma 11:15 A shiblon is half of a senum; therefore, a shiblon for half a measure of barley.




We have a value of a measure of barley, and of a half-measure of barley.

It has been noted by some that it is possible that king Mosiah got these measurements from the Jaredites--through Coriantumr, or others, or the stone or plates.


Well, browsing through amazon.com looking for a quote to use here, and found this:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1842930958...TF8&p=S009#

While it's definitely best to see this for yourself/ read the book/ check it out from the library, here's a very quick summary of what I could see:

"The ancient Mesopotamian unit of measure" used by the Sumerians used barley seeds as a measuring device. The "barley cubit" was based on 180 "barley seeds"--but only symbolically/ figuratively/ etc.--according to one expert. However, the authors found that in fact, 180 barley seeds did add up to the unit, the "kush". They also used the "half-kush" and the "double-kush". Unfortunately, that's all I can see for now, but it seems from short selections that specifically barley seeds were also used to measure volume and weight.

Does anyone know if this is old news, has this been tied in possibly with the Jaredites before, etc.?


So, basically, if I understand what he is saying, the Sumerians are supposed to equate with the Jaradites, and the Jaradites taught the Nephites how to use barely as a measuring system. And this is somehow good evidence that the Book of Mormon is true?

Or did I miss something here?

Beastie what are your thoughts?
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_charity
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Post by _charity »

Scottie, it would seem to me that Jaredites=Sumerians is not what is claimed. Isn't it as easy to read that Sumerians and Jaredites were contemporary groups who both used barley as a measure?

Just asking.
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Post by _Scottie »

charity wrote:Scottie, it would seem to me that Jaredites=Sumerians is not what is claimed. Isn't it as easy to read that Sumerians and Jaredites were contemporary groups who both used barley as a measure?

Just asking.

That's what I was asking. Is this the comparison trying to be made here? Perhaps not.
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_evolving
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Post by _evolving »

I see the distinct possibility that the author of the Book of Mormon was intimate with the measurement systems in the Bible, and borrowed from there.


Lev. 27: 16
16 And if a man shall sanctify unto the LORD some part of a field of his possession, then thy estimation shall be according to the seed thereof: an homer of barley seed shall be valued at fifty shekels of silver.


Ezek. 45: 11.
11 The ephah and the bath shall be of one measure, that the bath may contain the tenth part of an homer, and the ephah the tenth part of an homer: the measure thereof shall be after the homer.



chomer [Hebrew, chomer in Hebrew characters]

definition of homer/chomer = unit of measure

Two ancient Hebrew units:
1
A unit of dry capacity, about 230 liters (6.5 bushels).
It occurs in the Bible; Ezekiel 45:14 contains a definition of the unit. In English translations, the chomer has been romanized as “homer” in Numbers 11:32; Isaiah 5:10; Ezekiel 45:11, 13 and 14; and Hosea 3:2. In 1 Kings 18: 32 the word is translated “measure.”

2
A unit of land area, about 2.4 hectares (6 acres). This was a seed measure of land, the amount of land that could be planted with 1 chomer of seed.
In the Bible in English (Lev. 27:16) the unit of land area is also romanized as “homer.”
_karl61
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Post by _karl61 »

but the Jaredites must have had a better system - they had a language that was not corrupted and was the pure adamic language and I'm sure they must have had a greater math system too.
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_charity
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Post by _charity »

thestyleguy wrote:but the Jaredites must have had a better system - they had a language that was not corrupted and was the pure adamic language and I'm sure they must have had a greater math system too.


I don't know that the claim is made that the Jaredites had the pure Adamic language. Their language was not confounded at the tower, but I don't know but what the language had devolved between Adam and the tower. There is on word, deseret, which might have been an Adamic word.
_Blixa
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Post by _Blixa »

evolving wrote:I see the distinct possibility that the author of the Book of Mormon was intimate with the measurement systems in the Bible, and borrowed from there.


Lev. 27: 16
16 And if a man shall sanctify unto the LORD some part of a field of his possession, then thy estimation shall be according to the seed thereof: an homer of barley seed shall be valued at fifty shekels of silver.


Ezek. 45: 11.
11 The ephah and the bath shall be of one measure, that the bath may contain the tenth part of an homer, and the ephah the tenth part of an homer: the measure thereof shall be after the homer.



chomer [Hebrew, chomer in Hebrew characters]

definition of homer/chomer = unit of measure

Two ancient Hebrew units:
1
A unit of dry capacity, about 230 liters (6.5 bushels).
It occurs in the Bible; Ezekiel 45:14 contains a definition of the unit. In English translations, the chomer has been romanized as “homer” in Numbers 11:32; Isaiah 5:10; Ezekiel 45:11, 13 and 14; and Hosea 3:2. In 1 Kings 18: 32 the word is translated “measure.”

2
A unit of land area, about 2.4 hectares (6 acres). This was a seed measure of land, the amount of land that could be planted with 1 chomer of seed.
In the Bible in English (Lev. 27:16) the unit of land area is also romanized as “homer.”


I thought "homer" was a unit of measurement for beer, pork chops and donuts, only. Some Schmo?
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Post by _beastie »

Scottie,

I would say that evolving is correct, and the origin is from the Bible.

Besides, there is no evidence of pre-columbian barley in ancient Mesoamerica. The barley that apologists like to talk about was discovered in Arizona, and was a completely different species from the Old World barley.
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_moksha
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Post by _moksha »

Blixa wrote:I thought "Homer" was a unit of measurement for beer, pork chops and donuts, only.


Doh!
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