DiscussMormonism.com

Never say 'no' to a young man who asks for a dance.

Never say 'no' to a calling.

Never say 'no' to the Bishop.

Never say 'no' to the Stake President.

Never say 'no' to the Prophet.

In my experience, Mormon females are discouraged from saying 'no' to priesthood holders in general. Why is that? Do they speak for God and know more than women know about themselves? Did my Bishop know more about my stress levels at home, my schedule, my talents and personality than I did when he asked me to be the Enrichment Leader? He seemed to think so, even though I loathe crafting, scrap-booking, and basically all other activities done in monthly Enrichment meetings.

I had four tiny girls and a very busy husband. But that didn't matter. I wasn't supposed to decline a calling. And I knew from all those lessons in Relief Society that if I put church things first, everything else would fall into place. Never mind that that never really seemed to be the case. If things weren't working well in my calling, it was my fault. That, without a doubt, was made clear by numerous Sunday lessons.

And heaven forbid any boy have his feelings hurt at a dance by a girl who just doesn't feel like dancing. There's no reason to be rude, but why in the world should young women feel it wrong to decline to dance with a boy who asks over and over again?

Why in Mormon culture do the demands of men supersede the needs and feelings of women? Why is it such a sin to say 'no' to the requests of males, unless said request is, of course, sexual in nature? It always seemed that when I most wanted to say, "Yes!", I had to say "No". And when I wanted to shout, "No!", I had to humble myself and acquiesce, because, as a woman, it was my role to give and give and give of myself until there was completely and utterly nothing left of me. And even then, I was usually riddled with guilt for not doing more.

To this day, evil apostate that I am, I still have trouble declining requests. I still feel uneasy when defending my own needs or time. I'm still a girl who cain't say no, at least not easily. I was well trained.

Does Mormon culture create females who are too compliant? Or is it entirely a matter of individual personality? In my view, it's likely a mixture of both.

KA

PS - The song "I Cain't Say No" from Rogers and Hammerstein's Oklahoma (Which has absolutely nothing to do with saying no to callings!): http://youtube.com/watch?v=tX_0RtAr_p4

I think a lot of people feel like that regardless of religion. I too find it hard to say no. Especially when I was working. And I haven't been brought up in the church. Although I was brought up in a way that this could well be a result of. It is really hard to say no. But I think it doesn't really matter. I just see it as service. It's when it affects ones life there is a problem.

Pirate.

KimberlyAnn wrote:Does Mormon culture create females who are too compliant? Or is it entirely a matter of individual personality? In my view, it's likely a mixture of both.

I think it's a mixture of both, too. I think people do become more assertive, and more self-willed, when they don't feel an obligation to live by certain standards, like "turn the other cheek". This applies to males and females. This can be both good, and bad. Standing up for your rights is a good thing, and not letting people run over you. On the other hand, there's someone like Gandhi, a (more often) non-practising Hindu who claimed every religion as his (the good parts), and accomplished more by non-violence than armies could. It could be said that he almost single-handedly defeated the British in India. Sometimes the more you fight for something by force, or assertiveness, or demands, the less you can achieve it. But this doesn't always apply in some personal situations, like:

KimberlyAnn wrote:I had four tiny girls and a very busy husband. But that didn't matter. I wasn't supposed to decline a calling. And I knew from all those lessons in Relief Society that if I put church things first, everything else would fall into place. Never mind that that never really seemed to be the case. If things weren't working well in my calling, it was my fault. That, without a doubt, was made clear by numerous Sunday lessons.

I know a woman who was in the same situation, but she had six children. Guilt for "underachievement" was present also. When she became inactive (never went back but isn't exmo) she became much more assertive. But, even as a member, she was no walk over as a wife. One time she got sick of having to do everything at home while hubby was either working or doing a church calling (he was a bishop too), so she went on strike! She let all the housework go for a week, until her hubby and children realised how much she was doing alone, and the chaos that reigned without her. They got the message.

i liked steven covey's thoughts where he said when you say no to certain things you are able to say yes to the important things so I guess you have to determine what is important. if you remember when you say no that you are doing so, so you can says yes to other things then maybe you won't feel shame in saying no.

Ray A wrote: I think people do become more assertive, and more self-willed, when they don't feel an obligation to live by certain standards, like "turn the other cheek".

I'm glad we largely agree, Ray.

Are you implying in the above quote that I, or former Mormons in general, do not feel obligated to often "turn the other cheek"? Speaking only for myself, I can assure you I feel turning the other cheek is most often the right thing to do, and I probably do it even when I shouldn't. I still choose to live by most of the moral standards I held as a Mormon.

Becoming more assertive and self-willed isn't necessarily the by-product of shedding moral standards.

KA

KimberlyAnn wrote:Are you implying in the above quote that I, or former Mormons in general, do not feel obligated to often "turn the other cheek"? Speaking only for myself, I can assure you I feel turning the other cheek is most often the right thing to do, and I probably do it even when I shouldn't.

I do it too often, as well. I think this has always been my nature (in real life), and it takes a lot to get me "going". I do feel though it sometimes went to absurd lengths when I was active in the Church. There are things I wouldn't tolerate now, which I did as a member.

I think men get caught up in doing what is asked of them as well.

moksha wrote:I think men get caught up in doing what is asked of them as well.

I agree. The guilt for saying no in the Mormon Church is an equal opportunity monster in my opinion.

I don't feel guilty about saying no anymore. I do what I feel comfortable with. That's between me, the Lord, and my family. And I really don't care what a Church leader says or thinks about that decision. It has taken me a long time to come to "that place", though.

by the way....LOVE the song, KA! It's one of my favorites! LOL