Why I no longer trust DCP

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_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

beastie wrote:Trevor,

Dan tends to flame this sort of thing, as well - he is very interested in what critics have to say about him and tends to interact quite a bit on that topic, but he then doesn't want to debate the actual topic that critics are focusing on. (well, when there is a topic rather than just discussing Dan's personal traits, which some on RFM and a few here do as well) Dan wants to convey that critics like Kevin aren't worth his time, but he can't quite stay away from them, which keeps the whole thing going.


Well I don't see him here so maybe he is getting over that.
_Trevor
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Post by _Trevor »

beastie wrote:I don't care if people believe or don't believe. I do care if people who deliberately seek legitimate information about certain issues are given faulty information (like Clark stating that the warfare in the Book of Mormon matches ancient Mesoamerica, for just one example).


You make an excellent point here, beastie, and I think that particularly when it comes to claims that involve the ancient world, much can and should be done to correct bad theories and information. I would like to see a more professional and concerted effort in this regard. There are very basic assumptions about the past that undergird a number of LDS claims that are simply erroneous. To those who do not have any background in the necessary fields, there is an intuitive appeal to these positions. What people need is an education in how to approach antiquity.

In other words, we can teach these people to fish, instead of simply handing fish out. People like you and Kevin have knowledge and skills to do this kind of thing. I would love to see it happen, but so much time is spent trading barbs with the charitys and Dans out there.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_solomarineris
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Post by _solomarineris »

Trevor wrote:
solomarineris wrote:Now, I am not saying what Mormons believe is right or wrong but they are simply bizzare,
So, if you do not want to be ridiculed for this beliefs, you are out of luck. There will be always somebody
out there to pick on you.

I agree with you that LDS beliefs are unusual, like the beliefs of almost every religion out there, but I don't think this obligates Mormons to converse seriously about them with people who approach them rudely.
"Dear, sir (moron), you have an obligation to defend your idiotic beliefs to me. If you refuse, this just proves how idiotic those beliefs really are."
Frankly, I won't blame people who do not respond to that approach.


Trevor,
You act like you don't get it. If you are an LDS (again I don't have the slightest idea you are) and going to the world proclaiming this Church is
the only true church, then you owe people explaining to do!
Things that you believe. Such as;
God does not want him to drink coffee or wine
God has a physical body.
God lives on a distant planet.
you must know the secret passwords to get into heaven.
Polygamy is an eternal principle
Onus is on ambassadors of the church to explain to the prospective investigators.

So what? Average Christian, especially fundamentalists are ridiculed as well.
_Trevor
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Post by _Trevor »

solomarineris wrote:Trevor,
You act like you don't get it. If you are an LDS (again I don't have the slightest idea you are) and going to the world proclaiming this Church is the only true church, then you owe people explaining to do!


I think the ongoing context is important here. Scratch was complaining about DCP's refusal to engage him on the subject of LDS academic embarrassment. This is a far cry from a missionary going out into the field to share the good word with random folks. I am talking about the person who approaches you and says, "hey, idiot, why do you believe stupid crap?" and then acts surprised when you don't feel obliged to respond.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_Mister Scratch
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Post by _Mister Scratch »

Trevor wrote:
solomarineris wrote:Trevor,
You act like you don't get it. If you are an LDS (again I don't have the slightest idea you are) and going to the world proclaiming this Church is the only true church, then you owe people explaining to do!


I think the ongoing context is important here. Scratch was complaining about DCP's refusal to engage him on the subject of LDS academic embarrassment.


Trevor--- Did you not bear witness to the relentless taunting of Yme on the MADboard? I believe a rather critical realization/qualification was made: there really has been no significant publication of any controversial secular LDS theories in *any* reputable academic venue. Critics have long said that FARMS work does not get peer review, and have made various other criticisms that are bascially correct, but are merely lacking in good qualification. No doubt part of the "ongoing context" are the repeated false assertions by Mopologists that their work receives legitimate peer review and/or acceptance.

This is a far cry from a missionary going out into the field to share the good word with random folks. I am talking about the person who approaches you and says, "hey, idiot, why do you believe stupid crap?" and then acts surprised when you don't feel obliged to respond.
]

But who does that? This just seems too much a straw man / caricature, in my opinion. I don't really think it matters how the questions, criticisms, or challenges are phrased. DCP, or any other apologist, would still refuse to respond. Unless, of course, it's in a "safe" venue, such as MAD.
_Trevor
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Post by _Trevor »

Mister Scratch wrote:Trevor--- Did you not bear witness to the relentless taunting of Yme on the MADboard? I believe a rather critical realization/qualification was made: there really has been no significant publication of any controversial secular LDS theories in *any* reputable academic venue. Critics have long said that FARMS work does not get peer review, and have made various other criticisms that are bascially correct, but are merely lacking in good qualification. No doubt part of the "ongoing context" are the repeated false assertions by Mopologists that their work receives legitimate peer review and/or acceptance.


Scratch, why on earth should we expect the apologists to cry uncle? Why should we expect them to yield and agree with you that they are dishonest, methodologically bankrupt, and woefully misled? What are you hoping to achieve by persisting in rubbing this stuff in their faces, when they are not going to acknowledge publicly that there is a real problem here? They are committed to their job of defending the LDS Church, and anything that tends to undermine their credibility in performing this job is not something they will do.

But who does that? This just seems too much a straw man / caricature, in my opinion. I don't really think it matters how the questions, criticisms, or challenges are phrased. DCP, or any other apologist, would still refuse to respond. Unless, of course, it's in a "safe" venue, such as MAD.


There is a difference between an exaggeration and a strawman. I think you are capable of seeing it. My question still remains--if you don't expect them to respond, why keep it up? I suppose it doesn't matter how insultingly you pose the invitation, if you know it won't be answered anyway, but then you run the risk of looking like a Grade A turd.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_Jersey Girl
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

Trevor
Scratch, why on earth should we expect the apologists to cry uncle? Why should we expect them to yield and agree with you that they are dishonest, methodologically bankrupt, and woefully misled? What are you hoping to achieve by persisting in rubbing this stuff in their faces, when they are not going to acknowledge publicly that there is a real problem here? They are committed to their job of defending the LDS Church, and anything that tends to undermine their credibility in performing this job is not something they will do.


You're right. It doesn't make rational sense. What really is the expected outcome to this?
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

What really is the expected outcome to this?


Not much really. At least not so far as a reaction is concerned.

I haven't kept up with all of Scratch's arguments and quibbles, but as far as this thread goes, my purpose is to simply educate those who want it. Those who need it. I'm particularly pissed off at the way Islamic educators have spread such nonsense about Islam. It is polictially correct stupidity and unfortunately Dan Peterson has become part of the problem, not the solution.

Beastie made a great point when she said for every vocal poster there are a dozen silent onlookers. Over at FAIR I had about four or five people PMing me begging me not to let up on the Islam issue. They found the whole thing completely fascinating and they were wondering then the same thing Jason Bourne is wondering now: Is Dan really wrong about this stuff and if so, will he ever own up to his mistakes?

These are honest questions.

But there is more to it than that really, because Dan played an important role in getting me thrown off the reservation at FAIR. Ever since then I have been misrepresented because too many people follow the tale he told. Explanations were in order, and those nuts didn't hesitate to misrepresent me in the worst possible way by saying absurd things like, I think a billion Muslims are terrosists. This of course, served teh purpose of making Dan look like the good guy. But I never said this. Even after noting I never said this, Dan kept repeating it as though I had. Charity recently said I was banned from FAIR for bashing Islam and then regurgitated Dan Peterson's rendition of how our debates played out. Most of my original posts have been edited or deleted, and I am no longer permitted to set the record straight over there, so I do it where I can.

While Dan claims he wants to distance himself from me at all costs, he doesn't hesitate bringing me up or alluding to me over at MADB, where he knows his word will be taken as gospel and I will not be able to respond. As a result of all this nonsense, too many people have assumed that my criticisms have had no merit whatsoever and that I am just some raving wolf in sheep's clothing. I think it is important for people to know that I stand on firm ground with my Islamic positions, and that Dan Peterson is the one who never documents his claims. I also think it is important to note the double-standards and hypocrisy involved in Dan'd back and forth Mormon-Islamic apologetics.

So, in order to demonstrate I am right and Dan is wrong. I simply did what FARMS reviewers typically do on a regular basis. They try to show how any given critic is untrustworthy by drawing attention to one or maybe two false assertions in some book they wrote. This is good enough for them to illustrate that the person is not only wrong, but probably a money-grubbing, demon possessed idiot who bought his degree from a mail-order service. How can the complain when I am simply adpting their own method? This is one of the reasons they'd rather just ignore me, that way they won't have to deal with that unpleasant scenario of explaining a double-standard (i.e. when critics get it wrong, it proves theya re unscholarly, dishonest, bigoted, Satanic etc. When LDS scholars get it wrong, it only proves they are human).

The examples of sloppy scholarship I provided from Dan Peterson are far more egregious than what you will find coming from most critics.

Do I think Dan is going to change his ways, accept his error and publicly admit that I have valid points?

Of course not. Courtesy such as this is taken as weakness in their world. As an apologist, you can't give in to critics even in the slightest, because it shows that a spiritless critic got something right and the Lord's annointed was wrong. This simply doesn't work in the Mormon model, and Dan knows it.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_Trevor
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Post by _Trevor »

dartagnan wrote:So, in order to demonstrate I am right and Dan is wrong. I simply did what FARMS reviewers typically do on a regular basis. They try to show how any given critic is untrustworthy by drawing attention to one or maybe two false assertions in some book they wrote. This is good enough for them to illustrate that the person is not only wrong, but probably a money-grubbing, demon possessed idiot who bought his degree from a mail-order service. How can the complain when I am simply adpting their own method? This is one of the reasons they'd rather just ignore me, that way they won't have to deal with that unpleasant scenario of explaining a double-standard (I.e. when critics get it wrong, it proves theya re unscholarly, dishonest, bigoted, Satanic etc. When LDS scholars get it wrong, it only proves they are human).


If their method is the a large part of the problem, why would it be useful to imitate that method? Even if you think you have softened it a bit? What turns me off about what I am seeing here lately, or perhaps what turns me off lately about what I am seeing here is precisely this focus on the person instead of the argument. I think you are generally good at focusing on the arguments, although they seem to pertain mostly to the ones made by Peterson and Gee, but Scratch seems to be having a heyday trying to make people like Dan, Ray, Josh, etc. look bad. Here I have little doubt but that the effort is better spent elsewhere. Even as entertainment it strikes me as kind of tasteless.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_Mister Scratch
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Post by _Mister Scratch »

Trevor wrote:
dartagnan wrote:So, in order to demonstrate I am right and Dan is wrong. I simply did what FARMS reviewers typically do on a regular basis. They try to show how any given critic is untrustworthy by drawing attention to one or maybe two false assertions in some book they wrote. This is good enough for them to illustrate that the person is not only wrong, but probably a money-grubbing, demon possessed idiot who bought his degree from a mail-order service. How can the complain when I am simply adpting their own method? This is one of the reasons they'd rather just ignore me, that way they won't have to deal with that unpleasant scenario of explaining a double-standard (I.e. when critics get it wrong, it proves theya re unscholarly, dishonest, bigoted, Satanic etc. When LDS scholars get it wrong, it only proves they are human).


If their method is the a large part of the problem, why would it be useful to imitate that method? Even if you think you have softened it a bit? What turns me off about what I am seeing here lately, or perhaps what turns me off lately about what I am seeing here is precisely this focus on the person instead of the argument. I think you are generally good at focusing on the arguments, although they seem to pertain mostly to the ones made by Peterson and Gee, but Scratch seems to be having a heyday trying to make people like Dan, Ray, Josh, etc. look bad. Here I have little doubt but that the effort is better spent elsewhere. Even as entertainment it strikes me as kind of tasteless.


You know, Trevor, I see you whining a lot, complaining that the threads seem to lack substance, etc., and yet when was the last time you yourself fired up an interesting / entertaining / enlightening thread? I cannot recall the last time. Instead, you seem content to sit back comfortably and sanctimoniously in your chair, hand to chin, shaking your head in disapproval over those who are actually engaged with the contention that is so central to Mopologetics. You advise leading by example, and yet do you practice what you preach?
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