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What is Joshua's Beliefs

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 12:58 am
by _jskains
In response to guy sajer, I will answer this honestly and percisely:

When I was growing up, I was purely logic driven. Science was my religion and God was a possibility, but was not a big role in my life. My parents were agnostic and my extended family was Trinity Baptist on my Dad's side with Methodist on my mom's.

At 14, then 15, and finally at 16, I had three seperate crushes with three seperate girls.. All of them turned out to be Mormon. Understand that I was a computer geek, not well liked in school, labeled a "nerd". So I never asked any of these girls out, but watched from afar. WHen I turned 17, I thought a lot about Mormonism and religion, so I tried the "praying to God" thing. I prayed and prayed for a week straight. Then came the Mormon Missionaries. My crushes attached to an attracton to any idea that was "rebellious" or "out of the norm", I joined the Church in 2 weeks. My mom and dad actually came to the baptism. It was the first time in years my father walked into any Church. It was funny, my grandfather (someone I deeply respect - a overthinker like myself who graduated from Berkely, CA and became a civil engineer) also came to some of the services and ended up shruging his shoulders and said "looks like a Christian church to me". So I guess I got his approval.

Unfortunatly my nerddum did haunt me. I was an outsider. I went to Seminary for the last year, asking all sorts of questions. They were annoyed. They just wanted to get through seminary. The teacher was excited, but I got the usual glares. Found out that the girls thought I was a nerd too, so they had no interests in me.

What was hard is while I was being baptised and converting in, I got a lot of the handshakes and a lot of attention. Since I was the only one in my whole family, it was nice.. But when I was coverted, that went away. If it wasn't for my home teacher, who was an awsome guy and someone who became my friend, I would have left right then and there.

I graduated and moved to San Diego. I was heavily involved for a few more years, and met a girl I fell head-over-heels for. Things went awsome, but I had to deal with one annoying quirk. She and her family were uber-Amway freaks... We got "secretly" engaged, but when I decided I did not want to do Amway anymore, her parents pressured her to dumb me, which I did.

After that, I declined rapidly. I fell out of Church and it was shuffled to the back of my head.

Right after the Y2k events, I moved to San Francisco to do work at a Dot.com. Needing some connections (I knew NO ONE), I ended up re-connecting with the Church. It was EXTREMELY tight up there. Everyone was very clingy. So I had a small family again. Things went well, until I did the thing I promised myself I would never do... I looked up Mormonism on the Internet.

Understand my brain processes things VERY logically. Feed it something, and it crunches all aspects and sides of a problem from every angle. Everything can be reviewed through my head 4000x.... When I realized I was getting older and time was moving faster, my brain got me to search everything on the internet to find some answers or anything to help squish my fear..... There had to be SOME way to slow my brain down.... It is scary to have my brain and would give it to ANYONE that would take it.

Anyways, so now my brain was fed anti-Mormonism, and that was eating away at my brain. The Dot.com boom crashed, and I was sent back to Southern-California, depressed that my Mormon family was flawed. It frightened me.

Without going on and on, I had ups and downs, struggling with logic and trying to decide if Mormonism was a good or bad thing until I met my wife. I got back into Church, got Endowed, had some massive spiritual experiences, and we were sealed in the temple.

Two years into my marriage, and that fear of death thing hit. I had a meltdown. For a year, I was depressed and in a funk until I found out we were to be blessed with our first child. Then something in me snapped back and demanded I just flow with it and stop trying to figure EVERYTHING out.

What did I learn?

1. There is no such thing as absolute truth. For every point against Mormonism, someone has an alternative view. It depends on what view you want for that hour.
2. People don't aways leave Mormonism due to Sin. It is a hard doctrine to make work in some folks heads, and that is just that. Even when I was out of the Church, I didn't drink, have sex with everythng that moved, etc. etc....
3. Mormons need to relax. There are good questions that are hard to have answered about Mormon History.... If Mormonism is true, then scary questions should be confortable for you.
4. Anti-Mormons need to relax too. Mormonism isn't a big bad evil organization. It is what you make of it. Blaiming it for everything that has gone wrong in your life is irresponsible.
5. Traditional Christians don't have a better grasp on reality than Mormons and vice versa. Mormons present their message, and if no one listens, that is their choice. Traditional Christianity should do the same. Mormon "Ministries" and dumb, and if the message of a Church is good, that should stand on its own without tearing others down.
6. There are free thinkers on BOTH sides. Mormons can be intellectual as can Non-Mormons.... In the end.. Well... Can't we all get along?

I believe Mormonism is true. I don't KNOW that it is true, I have faith that it is. Since Disproving Mormonism is akin to disproving Christianity, if you disprove Mormonism, it is all gone for me. I like the message it preaches. I think it promotes good values like charity, family, and modisty. So I am no longer interested in proving or disproving it in my mind. So my activity on LDS boards has almost vanished to non-existance. I do still like debate though, and don't mind good debate. I just wish people didn't get ugly all the time.... Yes, I throw my ugliness too, but I am usually provoked by direct attack.

Anyways, that is that... I can expand if legit questions are asked, but I won't be responding to spears.

JMS
6.

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 1:05 am
by _jskains
by the way, there was a struggle from many sides to get me to join when I was a teenager. My aunt was Catholic (I attended a lot of Catholic mass and schools), and I was taken to baptist, methodist, a Jewish synagog (had a friend) and was very well taught about Wiccan, which I had friends from there too.

Ultimately it was Mormonism that won. Funny, of ALL the converts chasing that one girl, I am the only one that remained in the Church. I lost interest in her and chased the doctrine.

God was once a man, Pre-existance, Heavenly Mother, the salvation of the dead, all things that really kept me interested... Perhaps I didn't have a pre-existing belief in the Bible that made me believe these were "non-biblical" teachings and therefore evil.

*shrug*

JMS

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 1:09 am
by _richardMdBorn
Hi Josh

Thanks for sharing your story. Please explain:
Since Disproving Mormonism is akin to disproving Christianity, if you disprove Mormonism, it is all gone for me.
LDS often assert this, but I don't think it's correct. Why should this be the case? Evangelicals don't depend on LDS beliefs or approach for our apologetics.

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 1:13 am
by _jskains
richardMdBorn wrote:Hi Josh

Thanks for sharing your story. Please explain:
Since Disproving Mormonism is akin to disproving Christianity, if you disprove Mormonism, it is all gone for me.
LDS often assert this, but I don't think it's correct. Why should this be the case? Evangelicals don't depend on LDS beliefs or approach for our apologetics.


Because to me, Traditional Christianity has as many, if not more holes than Mormon theology. Mormon theology fills gaps for me that make Christianity more believable. Hence if you remove Mormonism, the glue that allows me to believe in Christianity in the first place, it all falls away.

JMS

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 1:53 am
by _Jersey Girl
Hello Josh,

Hope you're well.

Jersey Girl

(a.k.a. LSD)

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 3:09 am
by _msnobody
He's alive! Good to see you're still around, JMS. Missed you.

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 3:16 am
by _richardMdBorn
jskains wrote:Because to me, Traditional Christianity has as many, if not more holes than Mormon theology. Mormon theology fills gaps for me that make Christianity more believable. Hence if you remove Mormonism, the glue that allows me to believe in Christianity in the first place, it all falls away.

JMS
What are biggest couple of holes in traditional Christianity IYO.

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 9:18 am
by _jskains
richardMdBorn wrote:
jskains wrote:Because to me, Traditional Christianity has as many, if not more holes than Mormon theology. Mormon theology fills gaps for me that make Christianity more believable. Hence if you remove Mormonism, the glue that allows me to believe in Christianity in the first place, it all falls away.

JMS
What are biggest couple of holes in traditional Christianity IYO.


Perhaps the biggest to me is lack of athority. Christianity has been a product of political and social debate for decades. After the death of Christ, the books that were to become the Bible sparked the first Christian debates on which to include, which to ignore, and which were authentic. Then when Constantine decided to allow Christianity into Rome, he said that he wanted to be a defender of Christian doctrine, but that the Christian fathers needed to get over their differences and decide on what really IS doctrine. Hence the Council of Nicene. Ironically, some of the very things Mormonism gets dinged on are the VERY things argued over during that convention. Futher argument by Martin Luther and his followers... Even the first translation of the Bible by King James's buddies into English was flawed. The translators themselves declared that they were NOT inspired by God, but rather simply were doing a translation so that English speakers could read the thing themselves. Basically in my opinion, Christianity became a "free for all" debate on who could make the most convincing arguments about what IS and what IS NOT Christian/Biblical.

What does that create? To me, that demonstrates a man-made and "dead" religion. People spending more time trying to figure it all out themselves rather than have any interaction with God Himself.

In my feeling, Mormonism offers a believable mechanism. You pray about it and if you personally feel you get a revelation from God that the LDS Faith is God's true religion, then you simply follow the theology presented by Mormonism. When asking Mormonism what is Biblical and what isn't, you theoretically have prophetic answers to those questions, creating a "living" religion. There are no debates, rather revelations that are presented in the cannon scriptures and additional writings (I like the King Follette Discourse myself).

Second, I don't think my mother is going to Hell. I don't agree with the "You either believe or die in enternal damnation". That isn't a loving God. Mormonism teaches something more logical that matches a more mature God. If you live a good life, you would be saved in the afterlife. Some people who grow up thinking the Wacky Mountain Monkey God is the true God may NEVER be exposed to Christianity, much less the branch - Mormonism.... SO why would they be punished ETERNALLY???? That's silly to me.

Third, I think a God that has actually done what we have done makes more sense. How can a God understand what we are going through if He Himself never did?? The Idea that God has a father and that there are other worlds going through similar experiences is very unique and inspiring to me. The "Oh, God was always there" is a broken answer in my own feelings. While I believe the TITLE of God is eternal, the thought that the man holding that title has a past very interesting.

Those are my more interesting ones. To me, Mormonism builds on Christianity the way Christianity builds on the Jewish faith. Leaving Mormonism is going backward IMHO.

JMS

Re: What is Joshua's Beliefs

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 2:42 pm
by _the road to hana
jskains wrote:At 14, then 15, and finally at 16, I had three seperate crushes with three seperate girls.. All of them turned out to be Mormon. Understand that I was a computer geek, not well liked in school, labeled a "nerd". So I never asked any of these girls out, but watched from afar. WHen I turned 17, I thought a lot about Mormonism and religion, so I tried the "praying to God" thing. I prayed and prayed for a week straight. Then came the Mormon Missionaries. My crushes attached to an attracton to any idea that was "rebellious" or "out of the norm", I joined the Church in 2 weeks.


Josh, I think you're a classic example of why the church shouldn't rush people into baptisms.

If it were medicine we were talking about, that would be malpractice.

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 3:03 pm
by _Abinadi's Fire
Hi Josh,

I am intrigued by your story and am interested in hearing more.

You have said some things that present a more clear picture of who you are and why you believe what you do, and I, for one, appreciate your taking the time to do so.

These are some of the things you've said that stand out to me:

jskains wrote:My crushes attached to an attracton to any idea that was "rebellious" or "out of the norm", I joined the Church in 2 weeks.

Since Disproving Mormonism is akin to disproving Christianity, if you disprove Mormonism, it is all gone for me.

by the way, there was a struggle from many sides to get me to join when I was a teenager. My aunt was Catholic (I attended a lot of Catholic mass and schools), and I was taken to baptist, methodist, a Jewish synagog (had a friend) and was very well taught about Wiccan, which I had friends from there too.

Ultimately it was Mormonism that won.

Perhaps the biggest to me is lack of athority.

Third, I think a God that has actually done what we have done makes more sense. How can a God understand what we are going through if He Himself never did??


I think there is an interesting progression in your story - I'm most intrigued by your "rebellion" leading you to Mormonism.