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Here's my initial response to Josh's comments about the problems he sees in traditional Christian churches. I'm busy working on a couple of papers for publication, so I may not be posting much in the near future.

Perhaps the biggest to me is lack of athority. Christianity has been a product of political and social debate for decades. After the death of Christ, the books that were to become the Bible sparked the first Christian debates on which to include, which to ignore, and which were authentic.

This is incorrect. The book of Acts shows that the first debate was over whether gentile converts to Christianity should have to obey the Jewish law.

Then when Constantine decided to allow Christianity into Rome, he said that he wanted to be a defender of Christian doctrine, but that the Christian fathers needed to get over their differences and decide on what really IS doctrine. Hence the Council of Nicene. Ironically, some of the very things Mormonism gets dinged on are the VERY things argued over during that convention.

I wasn’t aware that LDS were Unitarians. Nicea was concerned about the Arian issue. LDS tend towards tritheism which wasn’t an issue.

Futher argument by Martin Luther and his followers... Even the first translation of the Bible by King James's buddies into English was flawed. The translators themselves declared that they were NOT inspired by God, but rather simply were doing a translation so that English speakers could read the thing themselves. Basically in my opinion, Christianity became a "free for all" debate on who could make the most convincing arguments about what IS and what IS NOT Christian/Biblical.

What does that create? To me, that demonstrates a man-made and "dead" religion. People spending more time trying to figure it all out themselves rather than have any interaction with God Himself.

You’re right. There’s no emphasis on prayer in Evangelicalism. And it’s nice to see again that LDS don’t attack other religions. Being called a dead religion is such a complement.

In my feeling, Mormonism offers a believable mechanism. You pray about it and if you personally feel you get a revelation from God that the LDS Faith is God's true religion, then you simply follow the theology presented by Mormonism.

If the LDS claims were good, the subjective approach would be unnecessary. What if one gets a different answer from the one you got? Why do organizations like FARMS exist if the subjective approach suffices. Obviously, a lot of non-LDS don’t buy it.

When asking Mormonism what is Biblical and what isn't, you theoretically have prophetic answers to those questions, creating a "living" religion. There are no debates, rather revelations that are presented in the cannon scriptures and additional writings (I like the King Follette Discourse myself).

The revelations seem pretty sparse these days. On ZLMB, some LDS had to resort to calling the placement of temples an example of prophetic leadership. And GBH doesn’t appear to know if the couplet, “as man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.” is true.

Second, I don't think my mother is going to Hell. I don't agree with the "You either believe or die in enternal damnation". That isn't a loving God. Mormonism teaches something more logical that matches a more mature God. If you live a good life, you would be saved in the afterlife.

Gee, I thought LDS believed in grace not works. There’re a lot of LDS who disagree with you. So much for the unity of your faith. The question is not what we want but what is.

Some people who grow up thinking the Wacky Mountain Monkey God is the true God may NEVER be exposed to Christianity, much less the branch - Mormonism.... SO why would they be punished ETERNALLY???? That's silly to me.

Third, I think a God that has actually done what we have done makes more sense. How can a God understand what we are going through if He Himself never did?? The Idea that God has a father and that there are other worlds going through similar experiences is very unique and inspiring to me.

Sorry to break this to you, but it’s found throughout ancient paganism.

The "Oh, God was always there" is a broken answer in my own feelings. While I believe the TITLE of God is eternal, the thought that the man holding that title has a past very interesting.

Yes, the temptation to bring God down to our level is perennial. The LDS faith is not an advance on Christianity but rather a syncretistic combination of Christianity and paganism.

richardMdBorn wrote:Here's my initial response to Josh's comments about the problems he sees in traditional Christian churches. I'm busy working on a couple of papers for publication, so I may not be posting much in the near future.

Perhaps the biggest to me is lack of athority. Christianity has been a product of political and social debate for decades. After the death of Christ, the books that were to become the Bible sparked the first Christian debates on which to include, which to ignore, and which were authentic.

This is incorrect. The book of Acts shows that the first debate was over whether gentile converts to Christianity should have to obey the Jewish law.

Then when Constantine decided to allow Christianity into Rome, he said that he wanted to be a defender of Christian doctrine, but that the Christian fathers needed to get over their differences and decide on what really IS doctrine. Hence the Council of Nicene. Ironically, some of the very things Mormonism gets dinged on are the VERY things argued over during that convention.

I wasn’t aware that LDS were Unitarians. Nicea was concerned about the Arian issue. LDS tend towards tritheism which wasn’t an issue.

Futher argument by Martin Luther and his followers... Even the first translation of the Bible by King James's buddies into English was flawed. The translators themselves declared that they were NOT inspired by God, but rather simply were doing a translation so that English speakers could read the thing themselves. Basically in my opinion, Christianity became a "free for all" debate on who could make the most convincing arguments about what IS and what IS NOT Christian/Biblical.

What does that create? To me, that demonstrates a man-made and "dead" religion. People spending more time trying to figure it all out themselves rather than have any interaction with God Himself.

You’re right. There’s no emphasis on prayer in Evangelicalism. And it’s nice to see again that LDS don’t attack other religions. Being called a dead religion is such a complement.

In my feeling, Mormonism offers a believable mechanism. You pray about it and if you personally feel you get a revelation from God that the LDS Faith is God's true religion, then you simply follow the theology presented by Mormonism.

If the LDS claims were good, the subjective approach would be unnecessary. What if one gets a different answer from the one you got? Why do organizations like FARMS exist if the subjective approach suffices. Obviously, a lot of non-LDS don’t buy it.

When asking Mormonism what is Biblical and what isn't, you theoretically have prophetic answers to those questions, creating a "living" religion. There are no debates, rather revelations that are presented in the cannon scriptures and additional writings (I like the King Follette Discourse myself).

The revelations seem pretty sparse these days. On ZLMB, some LDS had to resort to calling the placement of temples an example of prophetic leadership. And GBH doesn’t appear to know if the couplet, “as man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.” is true.

Second, I don't think my mother is going to Hell. I don't agree with the "You either believe or die in enternal damnation". That isn't a loving God. Mormonism teaches something more logical that matches a more mature God. If you live a good life, you would be saved in the afterlife.

Gee, I thought LDS believed in grace not works. There’re a lot of LDS who disagree with you. So much for the unity of your faith. The question is not what we want but what is.

Some people who grow up thinking the Wacky Mountain Monkey God is the true God may NEVER be exposed to Christianity, much less the branch - Mormonism.... SO why would they be punished ETERNALLY???? That's silly to me.

Third, I think a God that has actually done what we have done makes more sense. How can a God understand what we are going through if He Himself never did?? The Idea that God has a father and that there are other worlds going through similar experiences is very unique and inspiring to me.

Sorry to break this to you, but it’s found throughout ancient paganism.

The "Oh, God was always there" is a broken answer in my own feelings. While I believe the TITLE of God is eternal, the thought that the man holding that title has a past very interesting.

Yes, the temptation to bring God down to our level is perennial. The LDS faith is not an advance on Christianity but rather a syncretistic combination of Christianity and paganism.

Not interested in continuing with you. I offered my opinion and you sprinkled in some very defensive comments, so I am assuming you don't want to discuss this with me, but are looking for a fight.

JMS

Not interested in continuing with you. I offered my opinion and you sprinkled in some very defensive comments, so I am assuming you don't want to discuss this with me, but are looking for a fight.

JMS

Gazelam wrote:

Not interested in continuing with you. I offered my opinion and you sprinkled in some very defensive comments, so I am assuming you don't want to discuss this with me, but are looking for a fight.

JMS

Sorry, but the tone isn't right for me to continue... "You’re right. There’s no emphasis on prayer in Evangelicalism. And it’s nice to see again that LDS don’t attack other religions. Being called a dead religion is such a complement. "

JMS

Good grief Josh, are you truly oblivious to how you come across?

Your ignorance and antagonism regarding early Christianity makes it easy for me to understand why you were easy prey for Mormon missionaries. They love it when people have an ignorant and negative perspective about early Christianity. It makes their job so much easier.

Mormonism can't make a case for itself without first attacking historic Christianity.

There is no way to get around this point without coming across as offensive at best or a complete jackass at worst.

Stop acting like a victim and pretending you're interested in dialogue here. You're acting like every other amateur at FAIR who speaks of tolerance and dialogue while refusing to engage in it unless you can set up the rules so you appear a victim whereas everyone who responds defensivly to your attacks, have the wrong attitude and just aren't worth the time.

And to make matters worse, you obviously have no flippin clue about the subject matter at hand. I don't recommend taking on Richard in any debate, let alone one involving Christian history.

richardMdBorn wrote:Yes, the temptation to bring God down to our level is perennial.

Why not, if this makes God more a meaningful concept for these people?

You cannot demonstrate (outside of ancient texts of religious mythology, your undersanding of them, and your own thinking process) that jskains concept of God is any more or less accurate than yours. He appeals to his inner yearnings, you appeal to authority. From where I sit, jskains has has much insight into God as ancient "prophets" do and is as likely to be correct. I see NOTHING to indicate that they understand God any better than jskains. I mean the figgn' Trinity is, IMHO, a silly, transparently man-made concept of God. As transparently man-made as the Book of Mormon.

Since "man" created God in the first place, it seems to me that "man" can make out of God whatever he wants.

This is incorrect. The book of Acts shows that the first debate was over whether gentile converts to Christianity should have to obey the Jewish law.

This was a non response. I do not think Josh was referring to the VERY FIRST DEBATE but rather that biblical compilation was an issue and problem.

I wasn’t aware that LDS were Unitarians. Nicea was concerned about the Arian issue. LDS tend towards tritheism which wasn’t an issue.

Interesting that I have heard evangelicals critical of LDSism accuse the Church as containing elements of Arainism. Give that the Arain issue was about Christ being subordinate to the Father and whether Christ was created they are not far off, nor was Arius, both at least on the first issue.

You’re right. There’s no emphasis on prayer in Evangelicalism. And it’s nice to see again that LDS don’t attack other religions. Being called a dead religion is such a complement.

Whos said the LDS Church does not challenge the validity of other religions?

If the LDS claims were good, the subjective approach would be unnecessary. What if one gets a different answer from the one you got? Why do organizations like FARMS exist if the subjective approach suffices. Obviously, a lot of non-LDS don’t buy it.

It is interesting to me that many Christians such as yourself deny that prayer and inspiration are not valid tools for seeking guidance and answers from God. If I recall it was Jesus who said "Ask and ye shall receive."

The revelations seem pretty sparse these days. On ZLMB, some LDS had to resort to calling the placement of temples an example of prophetic leadership. And GBH doesn’t appear to know if the couplet, “as man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.” is true.

Do they really. Well let me see, the Book of Mormon and D&C and PoGP add about 900 pages to the LDS canon. Additionally LDS actually do believe that GOd inspires and reveals his will to his prophets on programs, policy and yes even increasing temples throughout the world. Your use of Hinckley's dodge, by the way, is simply a smear. Sure an 90 year old man back peddled from something he did not want to discuss in the public. That is it. Whoopie doopie.

Gee, I thought LDS believed in grace not works. There’re a lot of LDS who disagree with you.

LDS believe in grace and works inextricably tired together. They know that works without grave do not save and that works after grace keep one in the saving covenant. THey also believe one can fall from grace.

So much for the unity of your faith.

Did anyone ever claim LDS agree on all points of their doctrine?

Sorry to break this to you, but it’s found throughout ancient paganism.

And so was the idea of a Son of God that is resurrected. Does this taint your Christianity as well. What goofy silly responses you have.

Yes, the temptation to bring God down to our level is perennial.

Yawn!!! And the apostate Christianity to put God beyond what we can comprehend because of some distorted idea that when we comprehend God he is no longer God.

.
The LDS faith is not an advance on Christianity but rather a syncretistic combination of Christianity and paganism.

YAWN again. Comments like these are just plain nonsensical given the fact that Christianity is an amalgamation of many past religious ideas as well.

dartagnan wrote:Your ignorance and antagonism regarding early Christianity makes it easy for me to understand why you were easy prey for Mormon missionaries. They love it when people have an ignorant and negative perspective about early Christianity. It makes their job so much easier.

I am sorry, but I couldn't just let this go. What exactly do I not know or what ignorance do I have on Early Christianity? Because I didn't want to go further after you and your buddies were having so much fun at my expense claiming I was a mentally ill diabetic freak? If things were a lot more equal on this board, I would have engaged him.

The truly ignorant one is you. You have no clue what I know and do not know from a brief paragraph. So climb down off your high horse, and quit trying to figure me out. You couldn't understand me if you wanted to, because you have a bias in your head that WILL NOT break.

Josh is an Evil Mormon = Josh is Brainwashed = Josh is ignorant

Can't work with that advanced logic.

JMS

Josh,

My recommendation is that you take a week off the MB. If you're interested in posting again, visit the MB once a day. Make the posts you want and then take a 24 hour break. A slower pace tends to cool tempers.

Have a Merry Christmas and a happy New Year.

Richard

jskains wrote:Josh is an Evil Mormon = Josh is Brainwashed = Josh is ignorant

=Josh is feeling sorry for himself