DiscussMormonism.com

Some people claim brainwashing. I wonder though, is any of it simply a weak mind?

If someone walks into a room and says "I don't think you should go see 'I am legend' because it has vampires in it and is evil", and you go "ok, boss"..... Is that brainwashing? Or are you just weak and easily influenced? How much do you pin on the Evil Mormons and how much should you take as your own responsibility?

JMS

It has vampires????? SIGN ME UP!!!!

ha ha, ha ha ha ha. You try so hard in your own way young lad.

No, that wouldn't be brainwashing.

Gadianton wrote:ha ha, ha ha ha ha. You try so hard in your own way young lad.

No, that wouldn't be brainwashing.

But that is the point. Mormonism is a take it or leave it situation. You do NOT have to go to Church. You do NOT have to marry in the Church. There is no one in Mormonism putting a gun to your head. If you think Mormonism is not of God, then none of the ideas in Mormonism mean anything to you, so you can just walk away.

Scientology actually asks for you to hand over all your finances so they can help you fund their church. Scientology employs people who can not afford their classes so they can work them off. Scientology costs $300,000 no matter who you are just to find out about Xenu and his tax audits. Scientology ACTUALLY presents itself as an alternative to mental health.

When Mormonism gets to that level, we cal talk. But it isn't. So why the need to constantly demonize Mormonism when all you have to do is walk away? By the time you are in deep enough in Scientology, your employed by them, financed by them, and if you try to leave, they mark you as "dangerous" and encourage all their memebers to ignore them.

But we are the cult... Riiiiiight.

JMS

Gadianton wrote:ha ha, ha ha ha ha. You try so hard in your own way young lad.

No, that wouldn't be brainwashing.

And you certainly think your better than me, old fart.

JMS

Josh,

It's not that I'm better than you, but that I feel my message is important enough to think through carefully and at least try to communicate coherently.

As an exercise, I'd like you to compare your example on this thread to my example on my thread and see if you can spot any important differences.

(as an aside, I'm greatly amused at how the persecuted and misunderstood Jskains just loves to get in his own bigoted campaigns against Scientology and homosexuality any time he has the chance.)

I don't think free choice within the church is as easy as you think. Many of us went through the entire deal, primary through BYU. Not only was I raised to never say no in the church but I never witnessed an example of anyone saying no. The few times I asked "why do we have to do that" I was turned over to my father, who was the Bishop, to talk about my attitude problem.

It might be quite simple for you, and good for that, but it's been very difficult for me to learn to say no to people and to learn to be skeptical.

I realize you're in the middle of some vendetta here or whatever.

The way I see it, when Joseph Smith said the Lord commanded you to take other wives who's fault is it that the people did just that?? Joseph Smith's or the people's?

jskains wrote:But that is the point. Mormonism is a take it or leave it situation. You do NOT have to go to Church. You do NOT have to marry in the Church. There is no one in Mormonism putting a gun to your head. If you think Mormonism is not of God, then none of the ideas in Mormonism mean anything to you, so you can just walk away.

When one is brought up steeped in the church from day one this isn't as easy as you make it sound. Our parents, and church teachers and leaders, implanted in our minds the very foundation of a worldview which was designed from the ground up to support a judgment of truth about Mormonism.

To learn about and accept that the church was not true required us actually to break with the worldview we'd learned since we were in the cradle, a worldview we were now so steeped in that it just seemed obvious that the LDS church really was true, Joseph Smith really was the best thing since sliced bread, etc. Going against that is tough. It's very, very difficult, and that helps explain why only some manage it, and some never do, whether it's in the LDS church, the JWs, Islam, or whatever.

When Mormonism gets to that level, we cal talk. But it isn't. So why the need to constantly demonize Mormonism when all you have to do is walk away? By the time you are in deep enough in Scientology, your employed by them, financed by them, and if you try to leave, they mark you as "dangerous" and encourage all their memebers to ignore them.

But we are the cult... Riiiiiight.

JMS

Scientology being worse than the LDS church in terms of cultness does not mean that the LDS church cannot also be a mind-controlling cult as well. How is this situation an either/or situation? Can you justify that? Cannot there be a lot of different mind-control cults? Could not mind-control cult be an entire genre of religion?

Gadianton wrote:Josh,

It's not that I'm better than you, but that I feel my message is important enough to think through carefully and at least try to communicate coherently.

As an exercise, I'd like you to compare your example on this thread to my example on my thread and see if you can spot any important differences.

(as an aside, I'm greatly amused at how the persecuted and misunderstood Jskains just loves to get in his own bigoted campaigns against Scientology and homosexuality any time he has the chance.)

What I find amusing is your lack of critical thinking that I find amusing. Other than in a quick example, where do you see me actively "campaigning" against Scientology? Can you show me a "www.scientologydiscussons.com" website that I run or any books that I promote, or anything that even resembles a "campaign"? Perhaps your own feeling of self persecution is starting to show.

As for my comments on homosexuality, again, you seem unable to read them. Of course in the end I think your either ignorant or stupid, your choice.

Critical thinking is an art. One you apparently lost.

JMS

jskains wrote:

Gadianton wrote:ha ha, ha ha ha ha. You try so hard in your own way young lad.

No, that wouldn't be brainwashing.

But that is the point. Mormonism is a take it or leave it situation. You do NOT have to go to Church. You do NOT have to marry in the Church. There is no one in Mormonism putting a gun to your head. If you think Mormonism is not of God, then none of the ideas in Mormonism mean anything to you, so you can just walk away.
JMS

One should not discount the power that the following have on (1) our perceived choice set and (2) the decisions we actually make: parental, familial; peer, and social expectations; norms of thought and behavior; social ties and obligations; access to information; perceptions about our freedom to access and process information (e.g., are we afraid to acquire or consider information because we might be "sinning"); self esteeem; perceived power or powerlessness, etc.

Once again Josh your argument is based on what I think (and what social researchers demonstrate) is a highly flawed assumption--that of unfettered free will and non-constrained choice sets. This doesn't mean that the Mormon Church brainwashes (I don't think it does), but it does mean, I think, that your argument, as it is, is flawed.

By the way, I think the consensus on the board is that the Mormon Church doesn't brainwash (with a few holdouts--Infymus and Gadianton). Why do you keep beating this horse? Would it be more productive to discuss the nature of indoctrination and what constitutes acceptable boundaries, or something like that?

And by the way, NONE of this is personal. I am reacting only to your argument. I am glad you've chosen to stick around.