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MAD gem from quote Kemara, a.k.a. Pahoran Jr.
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:32 pm
by _Sethbag
I thought I'd share this with you all.
(from Sethbag)
The fact that almost anyone not already immersed in Mormonism, would, learning about Joseph Smith and the facts surrounding the Book of Abraham, his polygamy, etc. would say he made it up and took advantage of women for personal gain, is a big hint here.
Surely this is a joke, its a "You can't be serious" of John McEnroe proportions, contrary to your assertion this wonderful example of mental gymnastics is not based on any “fact” as you very well know! Or I could be wrong, please present your evidence that almost anyone not already immersed in Mormonism would say its bogus. While we are on facts, what “facts” are these people going to be learning about Book of Abraham, polygamy etc. They are going to be "facts" arent they and not sensationalist dribble so popular with you. Are details in favor of Book of Abraham and polygamy going to be presented and is the Spirit able to attend? How on earth you come to your conclusion is totally beyond sound reason and critical thought and is utterly without merit. Your need to use subverted support on this foundational claim speaks volumes about the claim itself and the suspension of certain faculties needed to keep the Sethbag faith. Your faulty and baseless casual assumption and sweeping generalities not to mention a wonderful example of the fallacy of continuum (how immersed is immersed) raises the question in my mind regarding your ability to see reason, accept valid evidence and be an open critical thinker when it comes to Mormonism. But thanks for the great example of mental gymnastics.
We all stand here rebuked. It's only mental gymnastics and the willing suspension of rational and critical thought which have us unable to accept the reasons why Joseph Smith's industrial-scale, rampant polygamy with teenagers and the wives of other men seem so wrong to us. Likewise, it's only the suspension of rational and critical thought, and mental gymnastics, that prevent us from seeing the truth in the pro-Book of Abraham apologetic arguments, and instead judging that Joseph Smith made it up.
Re: MAD gem from quote Kemara, a.k.a. Pahoran Jr.
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:35 pm
by _Mister Scratch
Sethbag wrote:I thought I'd share this with you all.
(from Sethbag)
The fact that almost anyone not already immersed in Mormonism, would, learning about Joseph Smith and the facts surrounding the Book of Abraham, his polygamy, etc. would say he made it up and took advantage of women for personal gain, is a big hint here.
Surely this is a joke, its a "You can't be serious" of John McEnroe proportions, contrary to your assertion this wonderful example of mental gymnastics is not based on any “fact” as you very well know! Or I could be wrong, please present your evidence that almost anyone not already immersed in Mormonism would say its bogus. While we are on facts, what “facts” are these people going to be learning about Book of Abraham, polygamy etc. They are going to be "facts" aren't they and not sensationalist dribble so popular with you. Are details in favor of Book of Abraham and polygamy going to be presented and is the Spirit able to attend? How on earth you come to your conclusion is totally beyond sound reason and critical thought and is utterly without merit. Your need to use subverted support on this foundational claim speaks volumes about the claim itself and the suspension of certain faculties needed to keep the Sethbag faith. Your faulty and baseless casual assumption and sweeping generalities not to mention a wonderful example of the fallacy of continuum (how immersed is immersed) raises the question in my mind regarding your ability to see reason, accept valid evidence and be an open critical thinker when it comes to Mormonism. But thanks for the great example of mental gymnastics.
We all stand here rebuked. It's only mental gymnastics and the willing suspension of rational and critical thought which have us unable to accept the reasons why Joseph Smith's industrial-scale, rampant polygamy with teenagers and the wives of other men seem so wrong to us. Likewise, it's only the suspension of rational and critical thought, and mental gymnastics, that prevent us from seeing the truth in the pro-Book of Abraham apologetic arguments, and instead judging that Joseph Smith made it up.
So, what is the final verdict on this? Are Pahoran and Kemara one and the same? This writing style is identical. I mean, it is probably best to use caution here (after all, Pahoran thought for a long time that Rollo Tomasi and myself were the same), but I wonder.... If they are the same, then Pahoran has been caught in a lie.
Re: MAD gem from quote Kemara, a.k.a. Pahoran Jr.
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:42 pm
by _SatanWasSetUp
Sethbag wrote:I thought I'd share this with you all.
(from Sethbag)
The fact that almost anyone not already immersed in Mormonism, would, learning about Joseph Smith and the facts surrounding the Book of Abraham, his polygamy, etc. would say he made it up and took advantage of women for personal gain, is a big hint here.
Surely this is a joke, its a "You can't be serious" of John McEnroe proportions, contrary to your assertion this wonderful example of mental gymnastics is not based on any “fact” as you very well know! Or I could be wrong, please present your evidence that almost anyone not already immersed in Mormonism would say its bogus. While we are on facts, what “facts” are these people going to be learning about Book of Abraham, polygamy etc. They are going to be "facts" aren't they and not sensationalist dribble so popular with you.
Are details in favor of Book of Abraham and polygamy going to be presented and is the Spirit able to attend? How on earth you come to your conclusion is totally beyond sound reason and critical thought and is utterly without merit. Your need to use subverted support on this foundational claim speaks volumes about the claim itself and the suspension of certain faculties needed to keep the Sethbag faith. Your faulty and baseless casual assumption and sweeping generalities not to mention a wonderful example of the fallacy of continuum (how immersed is immersed) raises the question in my mind regarding your ability to see reason, accept valid evidence and be an open critical thinker when it comes to Mormonism. But thanks for the great example of mental gymnastics.
We all stand here rebuked. It's only mental gymnastics and the willing suspension of rational and critical thought which have us unable to accept the reasons why Joseph Smith's industrial-scale, rampant polygamy with teenagers and the wives of other men seem so wrong to us. Likewise, it's only the suspension of rational and critical thought, and mental gymnastics, that prevent us from seeing the truth in the pro-Book of Abraham apologetic arguments, and instead judging that Joseph Smith made it up.
I bolded the key part. This is a big loophole for TBMs. If someone is presented facts, not sensationalism, but facts about polygamy and the Book of Mormon, and that person comes to the conclusion that Joseph Smith was a fraud, obviously the spirit was not there. And if the "spirit" is there, we are no longer talking about just looking at the facts. Now we are bringing emotion into it too.
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 11:21 pm
by _CaliforniaKid
I ran across an amusing quote today too:
'Knowing how Mormonism is a Satanic counterfeit "gospel" that the Biblical writers WARNED us about, is NOT
UNREASONABLE BELIEF.' - CARM poster (emphasis in original)
Are details in favor of Book of Abraham and polygamy going to be presented and is the Spirit able to attend?
The bit about "details in favor" would be more significant if there
were any details in favor of the Book of Abraham and polygamy to speak of. I've been asked several times recently what book I think is a good neutral introduction to the Book of Abraham controversy. But unfortunately there's no such thing, nor do I think there can be. The Book of Abraham controversy is such a lopsided thing, with the facts on one side and deception on the other, that even (perhaps I should say "especially") the most balanced study cannot be other than "neutral".
As for the Spirit, I had a CARM poster imply he and other EVs were "led" to be combative and offensive when proselytizing Mormons. Really, how reliable is a spiritual epistemology?
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 11:25 pm
by _Sethbag
I doubt that Kemara really is the same as Pahoran. I think he tries hard, but he just can't quite measure up. Notice how he came up to my argument and the best he could come up with was "I'm rubber and you're glue, whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you."
I'd expect Pahoran to craft a more hard-hitting, and personally attacking and vindictive, response.
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 11:31 pm
by _Runtu
CaliforniaKid wrote:I ran across an amusing quote today too:
'Knowing how Mormonism is a Satanic counterfeit "gospel" that the Biblical writers WARNED us about, is NOT
UNREASONABLE BELIEF.' - CARM poster (emphasis in original)
Are details in favor of Book of Abraham and polygamy going to be presented and is the Spirit able to attend?
The bit about "details in favor" would be more significant if there
were any details in favor of the Book of Abraham and polygamy to speak of. I've been asked several times recently what book I think is a good neutral introduction to the Book of Abraham controversy. But unfortunately there's no such thing, nor do I think there can be. The Book of Abraham controversy is such a lopsided thing, with the facts on one side and deception on the other, that even (perhaps I should say "especially") the most balanced study cannot be other than "neutral".
As for the Spirit, I had a CARM poster imply he and other EVs were "led" to be combative and offensive when proselytizing Mormons. Really, how reliable is a spiritual epistemology?
I haven't been impressed with the CARM folks. Too much like the mirror image of the worst of MADB. I agree with you about the Book of Abraham and polygamy. What exactly are the arguments in favor? Yeah, I know about charity's "overwhelming proof" (a.k.a. the Apocalypse of Abraham), but beyond that, the Book of Abraham is as close to a "smoking gun" as you get with Mormonism. It's obvious Joseph couldn't translate Egyptian, and the attempts to explain it away are pathetic.
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 11:44 pm
by _Gadianton
Yeah, it's pretty crazy. Almost everyone (now Kemera ought to think real hard on this one) would disbelieve both the Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham without having to hear the greater body of facts surrounding their productions. How many doors have been knocked on in the world and presented with first discussions? And how many of these folks who hear the good news eat up a commitment to the rest of the discussions and think that's it's entirely likely that some guy translated a bunch of plates given to him by an angel? By the time an investigator even gets a whiff of relatively tame "anti-Mormon" lit usually it's all over. It's really only a subset of the very dedicated and faithful that will remain devoted members after the beans are spilled. An outsider who gets as far as the whole story and still thinks ole Joe saw an angel must be like 1 out of 1000.
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 11:56 pm
by _karl61
I think there are plenty of examples in the New Testament of men marrying more than one woman, of men in authority using heaven as a gift for submission to them, or men convincing women who were already married to marry them. Why the New Testament has this example all through it - I think - or is the practice more like something out of the book of revelation with the dragons and fornicators and adulterous affairs and wives threatening husbands that they too will go out and get some ......
Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:46 am
by _BishopRic
Gadianton wrote:
An outsider who gets as far as the whole story and still thinks ole Joe saw an angel must be like 1 out of 1000.
Yeah, but they're the ones with "the spirit!"
Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:13 am
by _Dr. Shades
Methinks Kemara doth protest too much.