DiscussMormonism.com

I know, I said I was going to only post in the Celestial forum, but I do have a question I thought I would ask the group and see if we could have a serious and mature discusion without serious confinement.

First off, I know I have been a bit of an ass. There are reasons which I could go into, but lets reset for a second, because I think from the reactions I got from you folks, that I can ask this one question I really need answered. I need both sides to chime in, but there are reasons I want people critical of the church to comment.

One of the reasons I am likely going to move on from this board is now I do have a baby coming (our first) mixed in with some big projects for my business starting next week (which is why I have time on my hands now... I am waiting for the servers to arrive).....

(Also, we get to find out what the sex is on the 27th.)

I hope you can be nice cause I want a serious answer. How can I ensure that while I would LIKE this child to be Mormon, they had a choice like I did? Would going with them to other Churches help? Books?

I don't want to SHOVE Mormonism down the kid's throat. And I refuse to do the "testemony coaching" crap parents do. My wife and I have already accepted that if the kid choses another religion, we will support them in that. We will give them our concerns, but if that is their choice, then that is that.

I hope this thread goes well, because this is an honest concern I have....

And for you that are Ex-Mormons who grew up in the Church, please think of the things you would have liked your parents to have done.

Thanks,
JMS

Interesting question, and I appreciate the sincerity with which you asked it, and will attempt to reply in the manner you hoped for.

First off, I'd say definitely don't do the testimony coaching, as you've said you don't want to do. Secondly, find a way to represent to your child that there are a lot of beliefs out there, and yours are just one of them. A lot happens when a child is told by their parents from day 1 that their (the parents') beliefs are true and everyone else's aren't.

Then make sure your kid reads a lot and is exposed to science in an evironment where they aren't inclined against it on religious grounds and so forth. My parents did raise us kids in the church, but they also raised us having a healthy respect for the knowledge from outside of the LDS church, including science, history, etc.

And then, if you really want to throw a monkey wrench into the usual plan (don't know if you do, but if so...) don't have your kid get baptised at age 8. Tell the kid they can decide when they're, oh, 16 or 18 or so. Then it has at least a chance of being a real choice. I know you'd get pressure from all sorts of family and people in the church if you did this, but when you think about it, that kind of pressure belies the fact that baptism at age 8 really isn't a choice for a child at all, no matter how often they say it is.

Interesting you mention the baptism thing. I mentioned that concern to my wife. My comment was to look at the kid at eight and ask "do you want to be baptized"? But then you raise the question, is an 8 year old prepared for that?

But what then do you do if you wait, but at 10, they sincerly ask "can I please be baptized"?

Definatly a conflict for someone who wants an honest "testemony".

One thing I like is "I believe this Church is true". I use that myself. I don't like "I know this Church is true". I think it is impossible to "know".

JMS

If you think the Mormon church is the right way to go, don't you think it will confuse the kid to take him to other churches? Your kid is going to feel more comfortable in life if his parents think they know what they're doing, he'll probably be very confused if his parents are taking him around to church after to church with the expectation that he needs to somehow figure out which one is true, or right for him. I don't think parents can or should be expected to offer all of life's possible choices to their kid, it's kind of impractical. But they can be supportive when the kid starts doing his own exploring, within reason.

I don't think you need to chart out reading, they'll discover what they like in school or the internet, or even by digging through your library out of curiosity as to what dad reads. If you have to pull the authority card, it's better to say, "because I said so" than play mind-control games like the Meridian woman does.

What I didn't like about my parents' teaching was their complete fanatical devotion to the church. I love them to death and we get along great now, but they live every day of their lives in sorrow for their sons rebellion, and I even now will feel bad for them for what they go through over it so it just makes things uncomfortable and sad for all of us. So, that basically means I've distanced myself from them for their own good and mine, geographically and in frequency of communication.

I have a friend who's left the church whose parents are believers but with apostate tendencies. So they'll have spats, but there doesn't appear to be incredibly deeply hurt feelings over it and they're close, visit all the time etc. and it's all good. So how do I say it but, don't be so loose that the kid doesn't respect you and trust you, but don't be a fanatical indoctrinator - because if he takes his own path, it won't be happy times.

jskains wrote:One thing I like is "I believe this Church is true". I use that myself. I don't like "I know this Church is true". I think it is impossible to "know".

JMS

Josh,

You're a nut.

Look. If the church is true, then it's all true. You can't be a fence sitter. Jesus said (unless of course you are a NOM). Sit on the fence and you end up being some spit. If the prophet says that it's all or nothing then make your choice and live with it.

If the church is all true you have no business seeking the opinion of wolves. This is on the list of don'ts.

Did you get the list? No?

Someone please get Josh the list.

I was baptized around 8 or so. Don't remember it, and wish I'd waited. Some friends of mine were baptized at 18. Trouble is, they didn't seriously consider themselves a part of the community till then, which means the teen years were viewed as a sort of free-for-all with less than desirable results. Maybe there's a happy medium somewhere in there.

Inconceivable wrote:

jskains wrote:One thing I like is "I believe this Church is true". I use that myself. I don't like "I know this Church is true". I think it is impossible to "know".

JMS

Josh,

You're a nut.

Look. If the church is true, then it's all true. You can't be a fence sitter. Jesus said (unless of course you are a NOM). Sit on the fence and you end up being some spit. If the prophet says that it's all or nothing then make your choice and live with it.

If the church is all true you have no business seeking the opinion of wolves. This is on the list of don'ts.

Did you get the list? No?

Someone please get Josh the list.

The Church could be true in a qualified sort of way and the prophet could just be wrong about the all-or-nothing, sheep-or-wolves paradigm.

jskains wrote:Interesting you mention the baptism thing. I mentioned that concern to my wife. My comment was to look at the kid at eight and ask "do you want to be baptized"? But then you raise the question, is an 8 year old prepared for that?

But what then do you do if you wait, but at 10, they sincerly ask "can I please be baptized"?

Definatly a conflict for someone who wants an honest "testemony".

One thing I like is "I believe this Church is true". I use that myself. I don't like "I know this Church is true". I think it is impossible to "know".

JMS

A lot depends on the culture and environment in which you're going to be raising this child.

Is not baptizing the child at age 8 a source of stigma?

Some of the things we do in the name of religion are really just cultural rites of passage. Jewish kids have bar/bat mitzvahs. Catholics have First Communions. Mormons go on missions. That sort of thing.

If I had a strong religious conviction I'd pass that on to my children, but I'd also do my best to educate them about world religions, tolerance, and free will.

If I had no particular religious conviction, I'd still do my best to educate my children about world religions, tolerance, and free will.

I do believe people should be exposed to a variety of religious traditions to better understand them, and even if they have firmly rooted faith in one camp or another, understanding other faiths and visiting other faiths is a good thing. I don't believe an 8-year-old is capable of making an informed decision regarding faith, so if you're baptizing an 8-year-old, decide you're doing it for the same reasons that others baptize infants, to bring them into the fold as a cultural rite of passage.

I can't be objective about raising a child LDS.

Whatever you do, don't let them make their choice at age eight and get baptized.

This is the worst hypocrisy of the Church in my opinion. They sit around and bash Catholicism for baptising babies, as if baptizing an eight year old is any more respectable.

Eight year olds are in a position to make this kind of life choice? I know grown adults who are tuggling with this kind of decision. David Waltz is an intelligent man who has tuggled with this for years. Everyone is hoping he chooses Mormonism, obviously, but they must conclude he is stupid. His is best chance of doing it would have been when he was introduced to Mormonism when he was eight. I have yet to meet an eight year old who said, "Nah, ya know what, let me think about it." These were considered easy dunks on my mission. The only hurdle was trying to convince the parents, and of course, don't tell the parents anything controversial about Mormonism.

The Church abuses the fact that eight is the age when humans can know right and wrong.

There is a difference between understanding the fundamental difference between right and wrong, and the ability to rationally deduce facts in an informed, logical and mature manner. Eight year olds are no more accountable for their choices than babies. The church exploits them, and this is hardly respectable.

dartagnan wrote: These were considered easy dunks on my mission. The only hurdle was trying to convince the parents, and of course, don't tell the parents anything controversial about Mormonism.

Locally this appears to be a large percentage of missionary baptisms, too, kids between 8 and 18, many of whom live in underprivileged homes.