Ray A: A Mormon 'John'?

[_Trevor]

It seems that character assassination never gets old for some people, be they TBMs or exMos.

[_Ray A]

Well done, Ray. In fact, I invite you to head on over to MAD in order to wax poetic about your "sessions" with these various sex workers. I'm sure Calmoriah, juliann, and the rest of the crew will be slapping you heartily on the back.

You see, Ray, you want, quite desperately, to have credibility. You crave it. And yet, you cannot have it. No TBM, save DCP, is ever going to listen to you, or see you as anything but a tool. And no clear-thinking critic or exmo is going to buy into your crap because of your stunning hypocrisy.

Boy, you are one desperate. Do I have to make it clear again? I'm not going to disown my friends. I see them as human beings I respect, love, and admire, regardless of what they do in their personal lives. If you want to bring all the "prostitute" and "drug addict" tags, then go ahead. I have never used my friends. In the case of the girl concerned, I gave her a home when she didn't have one, gave her money, clothes, food, without expecting "sexual services" (though that did happen occasionally, but not as "payment for services", and I was single and divorced), and my main concern was for her welfare, and a wish for her to escape drug-dependency and prostitution. She didn't, and couldn't, but it was, and still is, my wish that she will eventually see that this is a dead-end lifestyle. I would love nothing more than to take her out for a meal without her having to pop in to a dealer for a shot.

Do you think I care what Cal, Juliann, or DCP, or anyone cares about this? If they don't want to be my friends anymore because I have friends who are way below their moral standards, I will respectfully accept their decisions. I'm not even sure I can say Cal and Juliann are my "friends", because I've never met them.


"Credibility" is not something I would sell my soul for. And I would not sell out my friends for it, either.

I think you would sell your mother for credibility.

[Guest]

I'm impressed with any man that can look past the facade and see the beauty of the person underneath the pain and abusive cycle. The "pimp daddy" term is very demeaning to women. Also the "child of the night".

Mr. Ray here -- I don't think he's so outside the norm for men being attracted to women such as he describes. Does beastie fit that description? In some ways yes, in other ways there's something a bit different about a woman that has seen the underbelly of society. There just is. Beastie is no doubt incredibly intelligent, and I admire her greatly -- yet why does Ray's attraction to some women (and he is CERTAINLY not alone in this attraction) have anything to do with online debates about Mormonism? Is this just a way to whip him? ATLEAST he has the honesty to admit it.

And Mr. Scratch, you might be surprised at how many TBM's over at MAD would agree with Ray and yet not have the balls to say it. :)

[_Moniker]

I don't know Ray, but I do not a very real strain of anxious defensiveness in your reply. There was no real criticism in my OP, and yet here you are, right on the cusp of flipping out. What is it you feel the need to defend? These sex workers, or the fact that you had "relations" with them? I bet you see yourself as some kind of "hero" or "savior" to these "fallen" ladies, which only provides additional evidence as to your hypocrisy, and shows, more than ever, why you cannot be trusted as an "interlocutor" for exmo/TBM relations. I mean, can you imagine the likes of charity warming up to someone who was banging a drug-addled girl like you were?

Ah, and young women that do drugs shouldn't have sex? Especially with men that wish to love them and admire them for more than merely what other men take from them? I think this is showing more of your issues Mr. Scratch, then Ray's.

"fallen ladies"?? Urgh.

There are CRITICS that have dated these "women of the night" (fallen ladies) that you speak of. Me thinks if you have an issue with it you should look to your own back yard first before you start snickering at your neighbors.

[_Mister Scratch]

Well done, Ray. In fact, I invite you to head on over to MAD in order to wax poetic about your "sessions" with these various sex workers. I'm sure Calmoriah, juliann, and the rest of the crew will be slapping you heartily on the back.

You see, Ray, you want, quite desperately, to have credibility. You crave it. And yet, you cannot have it. No TBM, save DCP, is ever going to listen to you, or see you as anything but a tool. And no clear-thinking critic or exmo is going to buy into your crap because of your stunning hypocrisy.

Do you think I care what Cal, Juliann, or DCP, or anyone cares about this?

Yes, actually. I think you care all too much.

If they don't want to be my friends anymore because I have friends who are way below their moral standards, I will respectfully accept their decisions. I'm not even sure I can say Cal and Juliann are my "friends", because I've never met them.


"Credibility" is not something I would sell my soul for. And I would not sell out my friends for it, either.

Hence your endless flip-flopping.

[_Mister Scratch]

<sigh> Yes, Jason, informants. Many people have PMed me leads or tips which they'd like me to comment upon. This is old news, my friend.

Why do you need informants?

I don't "need" them. They come to me.

Why do you need to post threads that smear others? what is your goal, purpose, etc? Most your posts and threads are about other people and you SPIN things to make them look really bad. Personal destruction seems to be your goal.

Nope. I'm interested in Perfecting the Saints.

Well, given your whacked-out and antiquated notions pertaining to gender roles

I have no idea what the hell you are talking about. I think my view of gender roles is fairly contemporary. Ask TD or Harmony or some of the other women here that I have interacted on this issue with. Ask my working spouse and my daughters who I have encouraged in all their worthy pursuits. Am I now going to be a target of your spinning since I am pointing out the bad behavior you seem to be obsessed with?

I seem to recall an exchange of ours in which I mopped the floor with you on the issue of gender roles, though I admit I could be mistaken. Feel free to call me on it.

(what do you think of Ray A's apparent prostitute addiction, by the way?),

I have no desire to opine about what Ray may or may not have said about this nor to do arm chair phsyco-analysis on him. I prefer to discuss issues, controversies and so on, not people that post here.

Then what are you doing on this thread?

[_Gadianton]

Huh. Not sure what to make of this one. Ray of course knows I have no problem with this industry and I think it should be legal in the US. But since everyone seems happy to explore this topic, including Ray, I might as well ask what the nature of the relationship was. I mean, Jesus of course was friends with and not *too good* for prostitutes, tax collectors, or anyone else. But for many people (not me), there is a difference between befriending and being a client. So I don't any of "DCP's friends" would deplore Ray being friends with anyone, it's possible that they might raise an eyebrow over being a frequent client which is, of course, how must would get to the point of friendship in the first place.

[_Mister Scratch]

As someone who has worked in the sex industry I'm impressed with any man that can look past the facade and see the beauty of the person underneath the pain and abusive cycle. The "pimp daddy" term is very demeaning to women. Also the "child of the night".

Just so you know Mr. Scratch, I have had close to 30 personal PMs as well as chats with men (often times critics and QUITE a few TBM's) that think very similar to Mr. Ray here -- I don't think he's so outside the norm for men being attracted to women such as he describes. Does beastie fit that description? In some ways yes, in other ways there's something a bit different about a woman that has seen the underbelly of society. There just is. Beastie is no doubt incredibly intelligent, and I admire her greatly -- yet why does Ray's attraction to some women (and he is CERTAINLY not alone in this attraction) have anything to do with online debates about Mormonism?

It is not the attraction in and of itself so much; rather, it is how this figures into Ray's peculiar status as a straddler of the "defender" line.

Is this just a way to whip him? ATLEAST he has the honesty to admit it. They come to me in private because they're shamed of their attraction. So bravo to Ray for admitting it at least.

I really honestly could care less who or what Ray is attracted to. I'm far more interested in what this says about his status as a defender of Mormonism.

I don't know Ray, but I do not a very real strain of anxious defensiveness in your reply. There was no real criticism in my OP, and yet here you are, right on the cusp of flipping out. What is it you feel the need to defend? These sex workers, or the fact that you had "relations" with them? I bet you see yourself as some kind of "hero" or "savior" to these "fallen" ladies, which only provides additional evidence as to your hypocrisy, and shows, more than ever, why you cannot be trusted as an "interlocutor" for exmo/TBM relations. I mean, can you imagine the likes of charity warming up to someone who was banging a drug-addled girl like you were?

Ah, and young women that do drugs shouldn't have sex? Especially with men that wish to love them and admire them for more than merely what other men take from them? I think this is showing more of your issues Mr. Scratch, then Ray's.

No, no, no. You are completely missing my point. I could not care less if Ray is interested in having sex with or loving a prostitute. I *do*, however, care about the way this reflects on his status as one of the more rabid defenders of Mormonism and Mopologetics.

"fallen ladies"?? Urgh.

Um, yeah. That's why I put it in scare quotes.

There are CRITICS that have dated these "women of the night" (fallen ladies) that you speak of. Me thinks if you have an issue with it you should look to your own back yard first before you start snickering at your neighbors.

One final time: My issue is not with prostitution, per se. My issue is with the fact that Ray, as a defender, wants to have it both ways.

[_Moniker]

Huh. Not sure what to make of this one. Ray of course knows I have no problem with this industry and I think it should be legal in the US. But since everyone seems happy to explore this topic, including Ray, I might as well ask what the nature of the relationship was. I mean, Jesus of course was friends with and not *too good* for prostitutes, tax collectors, or anyone else. But for many people (not me), there is a difference between befriending and being a client. So I don't any of "DCP's friends" would deplore Ray being friends with anyone, it's possible that they might raise an eyebrow over being a frequent client which is, of course, how must would get to the point of friendship in the first place.

Ah, Gad, is that how you think all people befriend sex industry workers? By being their clients? tee hee.

Perhaps, for some. Perhaps not for others. :)

[_Moniker]

One final time: My issue is not with prostitution, per se. My issue is with the fact that Ray, as a defender, wants to have it both ways.

Yet, you're the one using derogatory terms to refer to these women -- not Ray. You're the one using scare quotes. Some of these women find it empowering to take money from men and twittering behind their backs at what suckers they are. Surely, you know this? Some of these women string men along for years and take from them. Let's not just make broad generalizations about these women that come in all fashions. Some are working their way through college, some are middle class mothers, some are destitute drug addicts that are on the streets.

How does Ray want it both ways? I don't see him denying that he's befriended some of these women, or had some as lovers. WHAT precisely IS the problem here? He denies it not. What's the deal? That you can't be a Christian and find a woman that works in this profession and see them as more than what their clients see them as? That speaks, to me, of his ability to not be shallow or just another Neanderthal male.