Ray A: A Mormon 'John'?

[_Mister Scratch]

What? I could care less for Mormonism, it's defenders or critics. I don't care a flip about LDS.

Then your remarks have been completely off-topic, and I hereby request that the moderating team move this portion of the thread into the "Off Topic Forum."

I request then that Gad's remarks be moved, your remarks as it pertains to Beastie, as well as Beastie's response all be moved as well. Matter of fact NONE of this has to do with the LDS Church, does it?

I think it does. And, apparently, you recognize that it does too, as indicated by your comments below, which I've bolded:

Hey, terrific. I just think there is something wrong with defending someone who defends the system which allows those words/terms to carry their derogatory power. Ray's stance on all of this reminds me of the sort of politician who berates porn, the sex industry, and so forth as things that "undermine values," and yet who sleeps with prostitutes on the side. Know what I mean? Something just doesn't add up there. I vote that Ray keep his friendships with these women, and ditch his defense of Mormonism. That's my position. His defense of the latter would seem to undermine the former, but that's just my .02.

I'm not defending Ray.

You're not? Below you claim that he's "got it right," and that he "has some decency in [him]."

I'm defending these women. I say ANYONE that sees past the "terms" and sees the humanity has some decency in them. That's all. And sorry if that's not relevant to you.

Look: the women have my sympathy and respect. I like the women. I want them to be happy. I wish that organizations such as the LDS Church, and other religious groups, which have long stigmatized such women, would [en]lighten up.

Those women aren't here to defend themselves, and continue to be dehumanized by the stereotypes and false characterizations of who and what they are. I take issue with that.

So do I. Hence why I find it odd that Ray would support and defend an organization that so stridently helps to support such "stereotypes and false characterizations." Hence why I find it odd that you (seem to) support Ray's support of said organization. Why not praise his sensitivity for sex workers while at the same time condemning his rabid defense of Mormonism? Why not take note of the hypocrisy of this?

Anyways, here's the bolded portion of your post I was referring to earlier:

The LDS Church and the TBM's therein very well show scorn for "fallen" women, no doubt they do!

Yet, I think that anyone that steps outside that paradigm and thinks for themselves should be praised for the ability to recognize the absurdity of the stereotypes.

I agree with you, and yet cannot help but note the hypocrisy inherent in a stringent defense of Mormonism in concert with such a "stepping outside".

About the issues, I understand your point. I know that Ray has spoken about how those that have not God in their lives may be morally decrepit... I understand... and yet on THIS issue he's got it right.

Which issue? That defending an anti-sex trade organization such as the LDS Church is a-okay?

I get the sense that we basically agree, but that I touched a nerve via the use of certain language. Sorry about that. If you don't want to comment upon Ray's various weird hypocrisies, well, then, hey---that's cool. Meanwhile, back to your regularly scheduled smear! ; )

[_Mister Scratch]

For I, the Lord God, delight in the achastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts

Let me tell you what I find odd about Ray's behavior. Above is the typical Mormon and Book of Mormon position on chastity. Now, Ray has said on his blog that he loves the Book of Mormon and will defend it to the day he dies. But I ask, why? And further, I'm not sure I believe him, that he loves it so much. It's one thing to be "backslidden." If someone were a hypocrite, It's still understandable that they deep down want to be different, but just find themselves too weak. Yet in this case, Ray isn't simply the backslidden Mormon who feels like he can't live the lifestyle, but he has some clear ideological conflicts with Mormonism, and yea, even the Book of Mormon itself. Ray clearly says that prostitution is "ok". Yet the Book of Mormon strickly condemns it. So why is it that Ray wants to defend a book that teaches false morals?

Yes, it doesn't make any sense. As much as Jason Bourne, and Trevor, and others want to see this as a purely personal "attack" thread, I *do* genuinely believe there are worthwhile, discussion-worthy ideological issues at play underneath everything, and I too am curious about this (additional) apparent hypocrisy at the center of Ray A's argumentative persona.

[_Moniker]

You're not? Below you claim that he's "got it right," and that he "has some decency in [him]."

Uh, my comments were related to the women. I remarked on his characterizations of the women vs. yours. I think ANYONE that looks past the stereotypes is enlightened. Does that make a defense of him? I don't see it as such, really.

Look: the women have my sympathy and respect. I like the women. I want them to be happy. I wish that organizations such as the LDS Church, and other religious groups, which have long stigmatized such women, would [en]lighten up.

Heh. I wish the women would enlighten the LDS Church and those therein. ;)

So do I. Hence why I find it odd that Ray would support and defend an organization that so stridently helps to support such "stereotypes and false characterizations." Hence why I find it odd that you (seem to) support Ray's support of said organization. Why not praise his sensitivity for sex workers while at the same time condemning his rabid defense of Mormonism? Why not take note of the hypocrisy of this?

Well, I just don't pay much attention to his rabid defense of the LDS Church. Sorry, I just don't. I think the LDS Church has some deep, dark, ugly, wet dream, naughty issues when it comes to sex in general. Most definitely! I am just not that familiar with the LDS Church to REALLY make comments on it though as it relates to some of these issues. I'm just not as familiar with the debate as others.

The LDS Church and the TBM's therein very well show scorn for "fallen" women, no doubt they do!

Yet, I think that anyone that steps outside that paradigm and thinks for themselves should be praised for the ability to recognize the absurdity of the stereotypes.

I agree with you, and yet cannot help but note the hypocrisy inherent in a stringent defense of Mormonism in concert with such a "stepping outside".

Perhaps instead of thinking of it as hypocrisy it could be thought of as enlightenment. Perhaps, Ray is the prophet of debauchery and just the man needed to shuck off the taboos imposed by sexually repressed LDS prudes? I mean, I don't REALLY care either way -- but that'd be sorta cool. :)

About the issues, I understand your point. I know that Ray has spoken about how those that have not God in their lives may be morally decrepit... I understand... and yet on THIS issue he's got it right.

Which issue? That defending an anti-sex trade organization such as the LDS Church is a-okay?

Yes, I understand that it would appear that if you defend an organization that treats women as second class citizens and shames women for their sexuality while enjoying these very women that it indeed could be a conflict of interest. I'd be interested in what Ray has to say about that.

I get the sense that we basically agree, but that I touched a nerve via the use of certain language. Sorry about that. If you don't want to comment upon Ray's various weird hypocrisies, well, then, hey---that's cool. Meanwhile, back to your regularly scheduled smear! ; )

You plucked a nerve, no doubt. :)

[_Mister Scratch]

Well, I just don't pay much attention to his rabid defense of the LDS Church. Sorry, I just don't. I think the LDS Church has some deep, dark, ugly, wet dream, naughty issues when it comes to sex in general. Most definitely! I am just not that familiar with the LDS Church to REALLY make comments on it though as it relates to some of these issues.

Ah, okay. This explains a great deal about why I was confused as to your position. Most people who post on the board have had pretty significant experience with Mormonism. The fact that you don't clarifies for me why you would be more sympathetic towards Ray. Give it time, though. I'm sure you'll come to see that his fiery defense is very problematic indeed.

[_The Nehor]

This entire thread is a personal attack.

Scratch gets information on a poster. He posts this information with the intent to malign said poster. The original unedited OP shows a bias against who he is describing.

[_Mister Scratch]

This entire thread is a personal attack.

I respectfully disagree. While a part of the thread could legitimately be construed as a "personal" attack, I think that the real substance underneath everything is an "attack" on the hypocrisy of Ray's position. Why don't you weigh in on the real issue, Nehor? Is it possible (and rhetorically feasible) to love both prostitution and the Book of Mormon?

Scratch gets information on a poster. He posts this information with the intent to malign said poster.

So, you think that mention of Ray's relationship w/ sex workers "maligns" him? Or them? Or who, exactly? Does it malign him because you agree with the Book of Mormon, and its assertion that prostitution and "whoredoms" are bad? Go ahead and weigh in, Nehor. I can't wait to hear your thoughts on this.

[_The Nehor]

This entire thread is a personal attack.

I respectfully disagree. While a part of the thread could legitimately be construed as a "personal" attack, I think that the real substance underneath everything is an "attack" on the hypocrisy of Ray's position. Why don't you weigh in on the real issue, Nehor? Is it possible (and rhetorically feasible) to love both prostitution and the Book of Mormon?

Scratch gets information on a poster. He posts this information with the intent to malign said poster.

So, you think that mention of Ray's relationship w/ sex workers "maligns" him? Or them? Or who, exactly? Does it malign him because you agree with the Book of Mormon, and its assertion that prostitution and "whoredoms" are bad? Go ahead and weigh in, Nehor. I can't wait to hear your thoughts on this.

No, I don't think that Ray's relationship with sex workers maligns him. I do think your crude references (before you wisely edited them) showed that you thought it maligned him.

I don't think Ray loves prostitution. That whole 'love the sin and not the sinner' thing might come into play here. Can one love the Book of Mormon and prostitutes. If you assume that God inspired the authorship of the Book of Mormon then you can check yes next to the two greatest commandments according to the Messiah.

I disagree with Moniker's position that sex workers who take joy in using men is some kind of victory. Replacing 'men using women' with 'women using men' does not seem like progress. Give me a real relationship any day.

[_Moniker]

I disagree with Moniker's position that sex workers who take joy in using men is some kind of victory. Replacing 'men using women' with 'women using men' does not seem like progress. Give me a real relationship any day.

You mistake my position, Nehor. I said that many women consider themselves in charge and believe they are empowered by taking from men. Clearly, both parties are taking from one another. Which takes more from the other would be the natural question. I've yet to find the answer to that question for myself -- and will likely never do so.

[_Moniker]

For I, the Lord God, delight in the achastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts

Let me tell you what I find odd about Ray's behavior. Above is the typical Mormon and Book of Mormon position on chastity. Now, Ray has said on his blog that he loves the Book of Mormon and will defend it to the day he dies. But I ask, why? And further, I'm not sure I believe him, that he loves it so much. It's one thing to be "backslidden." If someone were a hypocrite, It's still understandable that they deep down want to be different, but just find themselves too weak. Yet in this case, Ray isn't simply the backslidden Mormon who feels like he can't live the lifestyle, but he has some clear ideological conflicts with Mormonism, and yea, even the Book of Mormon itself. Ray clearly says that prostitution is "ok". Yet the Book of Mormon strickly condemns it. So why is it that Ray wants to defend a book that teaches false morals?

I didn't see that Ray condoned prostitution per se. He does apparently condone fornication, though -- and I've been informed that was a sin to my utter amazement. :O I didn't see that Ray said he was a client of a prostitute. Many women that work in the sex industry have lovers, husbands, boyfriends, or flings that are not clients. Ya see Gad, these women do have lives outside their professions. ;)

[Physics Guy]

This entire thread is a personal attack.

I respectfully disagree. While a part of the thread could legitimately be construed as a "personal" attack, I think that the real substance underneath everything is an "attack" on the hypocrisy of Ray's position. Why don't you weigh in on the real issue, Nehor? Is it possible (and rhetorically feasible) to love both prostitution and the Book of Mormon?

Scratch gets information on a poster. He posts this information with the intent to malign said poster.

So, you think that mention of Ray's relationship w/ sex workers "maligns" him? Or them? Or who, exactly? Does it malign him because you agree with the Book of Mormon, and its assertion that prostitution and "whoredoms" are bad? Go ahead and weigh in, Nehor. I can't wait to hear your thoughts on this.

No, I don't think that Ray's relationship with sex workers maligns him. I do think your crude references (before you wisely edited them) showed that you thought it maligned him.

Thought it "maligned him" in whose eyes, Nehor? I *do* think it maligns him in the eyes of TBMs such as yourself. (And by the way: what, exactly, did you find "crude" about the references? Feel free to be specific.) And yet, oddly, here you are claiming that his relationship with sex workers is a-okay. Can you point me to the portion of LDS doctrine that sanctions this view? Would you be up for a romp with a sex worker yourself?

I don't think Ray loves prostitution.

Well, hopefully he'll rejoin us and answer this question. Although he initially tried to portray himself as being very sensitive to the whole issue, I suspect that there is more to this than meets the eye.

That whole 'love the sin and not the sinner' thing might come into play here. Can one love the Book of Mormon and prostitutes. If you assume that God inspired the authorship of the Book of Mormon then you can check yes next to the two greatest commandments according to the Messiah.

Which "greatest commandments" are you referring to?