Gadianton wrote:Nehor wrote:I don't think Ray loves prostitution. That whole 'love the sin and not the sinner' thing might come into play here. Can one love the Book of Mormon and prostitutes. If you assume that God inspired the authorship of the Book of Mormon then you can check yes next to the two greatest commandments according to the Messiah.
Nehor, I understand your point, and perhaps I'm reading too much into Ray's comments. Let me ask you this. I've asked Ray a couple of blunt questions, if he cares to answer them. It's his private business and I don't expect an answer, though he is pretty 'honest' about his life. Here, while he's maintained that his relationship with the girl was a sincere personal one, he's also implied by using the term "sex workers" (hey Ray, don't attack me for being PC) that he doesn't see anything in principle wrong with what they do. Also, and I don't want to make Moniker mad at me (heh) but it does seem to me that men who date prostitutes have some familiarity with the industry. If it turns out, by an admission from Ray, that he has employed the services of these providers and holds it to be a respectable industry, then would you admit that it's a little weird for him to defend the Book of Mormon until the day he dies, knowing it teaches moral principles very contrary to his own? I mean, those who insist on respecting the trade, like Moniker (and myself I might add) usually can't stand the sanctimonious victorianism and patriarchal overtones in the denouncement of "whoredoms" and the patronizing "delighting in purity and chastity" of women (which usually means they're jealous someone other than them is out and about "deflowering" their turf). Ray seems to me to be sort your average liberal, man of the world who like myself, would have little use for the goody-two-shoes calls to "righteousness" and purity that are found in books like the Book of Mormon. To love it and "defend" it til death just seems very out of place.
So, if Ray's answers are in line with my speculation, do you see the problem? (I know you're going to just say, "No." hah)
I'm not afraid to answer any questions,
Gadianton wrote:Jacob 2: 28 wrote: For I, the Lord God, delight in the achastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts
Let me tell you what I find odd about Ray's behavior. Above is the typical Mormon and Book of Mormon position on chastity. Now, Ray has said on his blog that he loves the Book of Mormon and will defend it to the day he dies. But I ask, why? And further, I'm not sure I believe him, that he loves it so much. It's one thing to be "backslidden." If someone were a hypocrite, It's still understandable that they deep down want to be different, but just find themselves too weak. Yet in this case, Ray isn't simply the backslidden Mormon who feels like he can't live the lifestyle, but he has some clear ideological conflicts with Mormonism, and yea, even the Book of Mormon itself. Ray clearly says that prostitution is "ok". Yet the Book of Mormon strickly condemns it. So why is it that Ray wants to defend a book that teaches false morals?
Well, I have a little surprise for you Gad. The girl I associated with had a strong belief in God. Still does. I don't know what your view of "working girls" is, but the ones I've met (and I've associated strongly with exactly three) they have quite strong values, and, as Moniker pointed out, sometimes
loathe most of the men they see. To them this is a job, and one done out of necessity, often for money to support drug habits formed for various reasons. Yes, their personal views do sometimes conflict with what they do, but is any human free of this? One of them told me she saw a man who came to her for "services" because his wife was in hospital after just having a baby, and he needed "relief". She expressed absolute loathing at this, but said it was common, and if they refused customers on this basis they would have few left. The paradox I've found is that they differentiate between "working girls" and "real sluts" (their definition, not mine).
The question I ponder here, is how many men who savage Joseph Smith for polygamy and adultery, and moralise, actually have themselves "had a bit on the side", whether through affairs or paying for it, and want to justify themselves even more by saying it's okay, even normal. IF you live high moral standards (and I have reasons to believe someone like Runtu does, JMO), then you have more credibility. IF you don't, then I am no more hypocritical than you, and you are using these arguments as a semantic weapon as well (see below). Incidentally, you may notice I've stopped posting on MAD. I did this because I realise now it
was hypocritical to be posting on Mormon board like a TBM, when I'm not one, but I'm not going to turn against Mormons
to justify my lifestyle either.
One of the girls I know said she regularly saw a married Mormon man who unabashedly tried to convert her to Mormonism. But this hypocrisy is not limited to Mormons, as I mention above. I understand the charge of hypocrisy, but I've never made any secret of the fact that I don't live Mormon standards. Just about every poster who knows me knows that I drink alcohol. Just about every poster who knows me knows that I swear like a sailor. Why should these points be any different, as far as hypocrisy is concerned, than having a relationship with a working girl? I made all this known on Z,
where I also defended the Book of Mormon. Yet Scratch is only now discovering this. People can hold two conflicting worldviews, while not demonising one
or the other. Yes, I do recognise that I'm weak, but why should I cut down Mormonism because of that? Or deny that it speaks against "whoredoms", or deny that there's a far better lifestyle than the one I live? None of the girls I know are anti-religion, or anti-God, and have respected me greatly for my belief in God, as hypocritical as I am. They, too, recognise that they do not live ideal lives, and they are NOT beyond judging the men they see.
Here's the difference between you and me. You don't want me to uphold Mormon/Christian values (even though I don't live them in this moral sense), and you want me to STOP upholding these values (ideologically) to "be consistent" (and stop criticising critics). Yes, I DO admit I was at times hypocritical on FAIR/MAD, and projecting what I'd like to be, but in the process condemning myself as well. I've NEVER exempted myself! Look at your own "hypocrisy", Gad, you do a thread on MAD asking if "contention" is of the devil. Do you believe that contention is of the devil? No, you don't, but you did this thread using a value you don't practice, don't even believe in,
as a weapon. How is your lecturing different to what I've done in the past? And on Z I did the same thing. I used the Book of Mormon to "attack" Mormon inconsistency, while I was myself on Z contending with Mormons.
Do you get my point here? Do you really believe contention is of the devil? Can you legitimately use
any argument unless you fully practice and believe in it? I sense some self-righteousness here, as well.
The girls I know would all rather not live this lifestyle. One has actually got out, and has been working as a nurse for a couple of years now. We are still good friends (that's all) and ring each other on occasion to talk and have a good laugh. I do not see any of them now, and as people I hold them all in high regard. I know them, I know about their personal lives, and above all I see them as human beings struggling with the paradoxes of life.
This thread has now become too laden with questions and charges for me to answer all in one go. But I'll eventually answer all.
One more point, which will probably put me in even worse light, but so what. I have not had a serious relationship because I would not want to have one unless I really loved the woman, and knew I could be faithful. So yes, I did dally with "working girls" after divorce (what should I do, put my sexual desires in the freezer?), but in the process found that I came to see a very different side of these women, and I loved them as human beings, and wanted to be more than just a client, but a friend. There is one in particular that I like more than all the others, and if she could escape the drug cycle, I could love her, and her only, for the rest of my life. Sadly, it ain't going to happen. I can only dream.