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So, last night we're at my in-laws playing cards. Somehow the topic of Pavarottit comes up. My father-in-law says something to the effect like "he was a great singer, too bad he had such bad morals."

So I asked (knowing full well how they'd reply), "just how did Pavarotti have such bad morals?"

He was, both mother and father in law replied, a philanderer.

I bit my lip but I would like to have asked "so what makes Pavarotti worse than Joseph Smith?" Or, I might liked to have observed something like, "yeah, too bad for Pavarotti that Joseph Smith took the "God commanded me to" excuse before he could.

The lack of critical self-reflection among true believers is simply astounding.

guy sajer wrote:The lack of critical self-reflection among true believers is simply astounding.

I suppose you are correct. The level of narcissism displayed by many on this forum can be described as "self-reflection."

Let's use your post as exhibit A. "They're all stupid, we're so smart, blah blah blah." This is getting boring.

mledbetter wrote:

guy sajer wrote:The lack of critical self-reflection among true believers is simply astounding.

I suppose you are correct. The level of narcissism displayed by many on this forum can be described as "self-reflection."

Let's use your post as exhibit A. "They're all stupid, we're so smart, blah blah blah." This is getting boring.

guy is making a comparison between the lifestyles, if you will, of Pavarotti and Joseph Smith. Do you think they are comparable? Do you think one should be condemned while the other is not?

mledbetter wrote:

guy sajer wrote:The lack of critical self-reflection among true believers is simply astounding.

I suppose you are correct. The level of narcissism displayed by many on this forum can be described as "self-reflection."

Let's use your post as exhibit A. "They're all stupid, we're so smart, blah blah blah." This is getting boring.

No, in fact, they are very smart people, probably smarter than I am.

The difference between is that I believe submitting the same standards to myself to which I submit others (though I fail to live them perfectly).

That is simply does not dawn of them that others see Joseph Smith in the same or similar light as they see Pavarotti (and the fact that this type of blind spot is prevalent among believers) is itself astounding, in a way (though thoroughly predictable). They are incapable of seeing Joseph Smith and Mormonism through the eyes of others or in conceding the frequent validity, or reasonableness, of those perceptions.

Please explain for me just how my post qualifies as narcissism.

narcissim=irrefutable

guy sajer wrote:I bit my lip but I would like to have asked "so what makes Pavarotti worse than Joseph Smith?"

Why did you bite your lip? I would've loved to hear their reaction.

guy sajer wrote:

mledbetter wrote:

guy sajer wrote:The lack of critical self-reflection among true believers is simply astounding.

I suppose you are correct. The level of narcissism displayed by many on this forum can be described as "self-reflection."

Let's use your post as exhibit A. "They're all stupid, we're so smart, blah blah blah." This is getting boring.

No, in fact, they are very smart people, probably smarter than I am.

The difference between is that I believe submitting the same standards to myself to which I submit others (though I fail to live them perfectly).

That is simply does not dawn of them that others see Joseph Smith in the same or similar light as they see Pavarotti (and the fact that this type of blind spot is prevalent among believers) is itself astounding, in a way (though thoroughly predictable). They are incapable of seeing Joseph Smith and Mormonism through the eyes of others or in conceding the frequent validity, or reasonableness, of those perceptions.

Please explain for me just how my post qualifies as narcissism.

Guy, are they aware of Joseph Smith's true history?

Dr. Shades wrote:Why did you bite your lip?

Some people are really into lip biting. That's what I've heard, anyway.

Other people bite tongues. I suppose it's a matter of personal choice.

KA

Dr. Shades wrote:

guy sajer wrote:I bit my lip but I would like to have asked "so what makes Pavarotti worse than Joseph Smith?"

Why did you bite your lip? I would've loved to hear their reaction.

Perhaps he has TACT and perhaps he did not want the deal with the ensuing battle. Do you have believing family? Do you throw out bomb shells like this?

Well let me tell you, one night when the Warren Jeffs verdict was out on the news my wife went on and on about how awful he was and how he should have got more then the sentence gave. I tried to subtly point out some of the things that just a little itty bit might be similar to what Joseph Smith did...and WOE....it did not go well.

Sometimes in some situation things are better left unsaid.

Now, a PS to this is I think later my wife is thinking and mulling some of this over. But she really gets mad at me when she does and tells my I am stealing her faith away. And honestly I do feel pretty rotten about it.

guy sajer wrote:So, last night we're at my in-laws playing cards. Somehow the topic of Pavarottit comes up. My father-in-law says something to the effect like "he was a great singer, too bad he had such bad morals."

So I asked (knowing full well how they'd reply), "just how did Pavarotti have such bad morals?"

He was, both mother and father in law replied, a philanderer.

I bit my lip but I would like to have asked "so what makes Pavarotti worse than Joseph Smith?" Or, I might liked to have observed something like, "yeah, too bad for Pavarotti that Joseph Smith took the "God commanded me to" excuse before he could.

The lack of critical self-reflection among true believers is simply astounding.

A few comments:

1. Good for you, for playing cards with them. For years my in-laws looked down on me and my parents because we taught my Sweet Pickle to play pinocle after we were married. (you know... the whole face card thing, courtesy of McConkie I think). It wasn't until one of the uncles pointed out that they had all played pinocle for years, and enjoyed doing it that they let up about it. As a result, my Sweet Pickle refused to teach my children how to play pinocle for years, although we played Rook and Uno. Now we have pinocle and Hand and Foot tournaments at family reunions! Goes to show how stupid some members can be about some really ridiculous teachings over the years.

2. Do your in-laws know about Joseph's extramarital peccadillos? If they don't, they cannot be blamed for not making the connection. Besides, I doubt they'd make the connection. I doubt that many would, even if they knew all the particulars.

3. I bet a small reminder about gossiping and throwing stones probably wouldn't have been effective either, more's the pity.