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Do atheists appreciate the fact that they have so much to be thankful for in Christian civilization?

If Islam had succeeded in taking over Europe - which it very nearly accomplished - then the modern world today would be in the same situation as the Muslim world; scientifically fruitless and technologically dead.

Observe how atheists fare in Muslim lands and contrast this to those in the West, a product of Judeo-Christian civilization. In the former, atheists fear for their very lives. Under Islam unbelief warrants your death, period. In the latter, atheists are tolerated and an environment conducive to scientific progress is developed.

Historically, the world has been predominantly theistic since its very beginnings, and I submit that only in Christian civilization could science have flourished as it has, thus providing the vehicle for atheism to spread; riding on the coat tails of scientific progress.

There is a reason why science has flourished in Christianity and come to a complete halt under Islam.

Does anyone know what that reason is?

dartagnan wrote:There is a reason why science has flourished in Christianity and come to a complete halt under Islam.

Does anyone know what that reason is?

Maybe it's becaues there were many Christian factions that none of them had majority power. Rome wanted to execute Martin Luther, but Rome pissed off too many other nations, so one helped Luther hide. I don't see why a similar situation couldn't have played out under Islam. Heck, I'm pretty ignorant of Islam.

Even the Old Testament says that encouraging apostasy should be a capitol offense.

If I recall correctly, Islam had mode more scientific progress than Europe in the middle ages. Didsn't they had lenses for telescopes as well as some advances in medicine--you know while we were busy with leeches and other quackery?

Well I was thinking....................... (edited out thinking that was done -- :).......and umm... I dunno?.......................

Oh, sheesh. Again, I don't know. Ignore.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure it has something to do with agriculture. ;)

Maybe it's becaues there were many Christian factions that none of them had majority power. Rome wanted to execute Martin Luther, but Rome pissed off too many other nations, so one helped Luther hide. I don't see why a similar situation couldn't have played out under Islam. Heck, I'm pretty ignorant of Islam.

No, this one is way off. For one, Martin Luther was a heretic, not an atheist. There was never a Christian/state law for the execution of atheists.

Islam had mode more scientific progress than Europe in the middle ages. Didsn't they had lenses for telescopes as well as some advances in medicine--you know while we were busy with leeches and other quackery?

Islamic civilization quickly took over vast Christian territories (roughly consuming 66% of its terroritory) so naturally it inherited the scientific accomplishments therein, but Muslim advances in sciences quickly faded out. But nobody is saying Muslims never made any contributions to science (though in most cases these advancements were made in spite of Islam, not because of it). I'm saying that only in a Christian civilization could modern science emerge as it has, thus giving atheists the free will to operate as freely as they do.

The answer lies in the fact that in Islam, God's power is not limited to natural laws. Since God, according to Islam, is absolutely transcendent, his will is not bound with rationality.

If Allah could not be counted on to be consistent, why waste time observing the order of things? It could change tomorrow. This is why Islamic science took a serious nosedive with Al-Ghazali, the Quranic scholar who repudiated all the philosophers before and after him, even calling for their deaths. He denounced the natural laws, the very objective of science, as a restraint on the free will of God, who if he chose, could make a round square, a frozen flame, a married bachelor, etc. These things he could do because no natural laws exist.

Well Islam gave us just a few things like these:

Astronomy

Algebra

Modern Medicine

Numbers

In 1000 CE the learning and progressive center of the world was the Islamic world. While Europeans were still in the dark ages and the Christians were for the most part unified, under Catholicism, ignorance along with a life that was brutal, hard and short was what the typical Christian could look forward to. One could argue the crusades by the Christians to "free the holy land", where we got that famous phrase from a Catholic Bishop, "Kill them all, let God sort them out", help lead to the radicalization of Islam.

The real Islamic fanatics started in what was to become Saudi Arabia under Muhammad ibn Abd-al-Wahhab. Strange thing is that looking at modern Christian leaders, the approach they use, reject all that is not "Christian", etc., looks very much like Islamic Wahhabism, only "Christian".

Hi Kevin,

The answer lies in the fact that in Islam, God's power is not limited to natural laws. Since God, according to Islam, is absolutely transcendent, his will is not bound with rationality.

Do you think Christiantiy is limited to natural laws?

I do not get the impression that at any time the Christian view of God limited "him" to natural laws... for example, the virgin birth, the resurrection, miracles, etc. etc. etc. More recently, think evolution.

Seems most religions go with the supernatural no?

~td~

dartagnan wrote:

Maybe it's becaues there were many Christian factions that none of them had majority power. Rome wanted to execute Martin Luther, but Rome pissed off too many other nations, so one helped Luther hide. I don't see why a similar situation couldn't have played out under Islam. Heck, I'm pretty ignorant of Islam.

No, this one is way off. For one, Martin Luther was a heretic, not an atheist. There was never a Christian/state law for the execution of atheists.

That is not the case. An atheist is a heretic and heretics were burned at the stake.

Islam had mode more scientific progress than Europe in the middle ages. Didsn't they had lenses for telescopes as well as some advances in medicine--you know while we were busy with leeches and other quackery?

Islamic civilization quickly took over vast Christian territories (roughly consuming 66% of its terroritory) so naturally it inherited the scientific accomplishments therein, but Muslim advances in sciences quickly faded out.

completely incorrect. The Islamic world was far more progressive than the Christian world until about the 15th Century. It wasn't until the Renaissance and a realization of the natural world that Europe pulled out.

But nobody is saying Muslims never made any contributions to science (though in most cases these advancements were made in spite of Islam, not because of it). I'm saying that only in a Christian civilization could modern science emerge as it has, thus giving atheists the free will to operate as freely as they do.

Where'd you get this?

The answer lies in the fact that in Islam, God's power is not limited to natural laws. Since God, according to Islam, is absolutely transcendent, his will is not bound with rationality.

Neither is "Creation ex Nihilo" but people want it taught in schools as fact none the less, the religious ones.

If Allah could not be counted on to be consistent, why waste time observing the order of things? It could change tomorrow. This is why Islamic science took a serious nosedive with Al-Ghazali, the Quranic scholar who repudiated all the philosophers before and after him, even calling for their deaths. He denounced the natural laws, the very objective of science, as a restraint on the free will of God, who if he chose, could make a round square, a frozen flame, a married bachelor, etc. These things he could do because no natural laws exist.

Yes, religious radicalization, we call it "Intelligent Design" or "Special Creation" in the US, destroys thought and science.

dartagnan wrote:Do atheists appreciate the fact that they have so much to be thankful for in Christian civilization?

If Islam had succeeded in taking over Europe - which it very nearly accomplished - then the modern world today would be in the same situation as the Muslim world; scientifically fruitless and technologically dead.

Observe how atheists fare in Muslim lands and contrast this to those in the West, a product of Judeo-Christian civilization. In the former, atheists fear for their very lives. Under Islam unbelief warrants your death, period. In the latter, atheists are tolerated and an environment conducive to scientific progress is developed.

Historically, the world has been predominantly theistic since its very beginnings, and I submit that only in Christian civilization could science have flourished as it has, thus providing the vehicle for atheism to spread; riding on the coat tails of scientific progress.

There is a reason why science has flourished in Christianity and come to a complete halt under Islam.

Does anyone know what that reason is?

Now that you asked for it; I am really grateful Christianity taking over converting whole South America & destroying
everyting on their path.
I am very grateful for Columbus also.

solomarineris wrote:Now that you asked for it; I am really grateful Christianity taking over converting whole South America & destroying
everyting on their path.
I am very grateful for Columbus also.

(Don't forget North America)

I don't know. Is our scientific progress necessarily a good thing?

Seems to me that we are progressing faster than we have will power to handle it. Our progress is destroying the world.

Perhaps Islam has it right. Keep life simple. From my few observations, cultures that live simple, un-technological lives are much happier than our possession/money centered lives.

Also, wasn't Christianity the force that was keeping the early scientists like Galileo and Newton and DaVinci down? The science of a sun-centric universe instead of an Earth centric was blasphemous, even though all the data pointed to it. Separation of science and religion is a fairly new concept.