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Thinking back to the thread where GoodK is arguing that critics don't like to be labeled anti-Mormon, and DCP saying, "Well, tough! If the label fits, we are going to use it!", it made me think of the cult label that many assign to the Mormon church.

Of course the TBM's argue that they are NOT a cult, just as any good cult would do. I always wonder why they fight so hard against it? I mean, honestly, the Mormons do some VERY cult like things. The arguments that ANY religion will fit the standard definition is, in my opinion, hogwash. There are several things that the Mormons do that go above and beyond what traditional religions do.

I'll list a few that I believe push them over the edge from a religion into a cult. For you TBM's, try and imagine if another, smaller religious group were doing these things, and they were trying to recruit your daughter.

1. Secret temple rituals.
2. Forcing members to pay money to participate in the secret temple rituals.
3. Calling the leader "The Prophet"
4. Wealthy leaders, while the membership struggles to pay tithes.
5. Undisclosed financials.
6. Excessive time investment highly encourage. In fact, it is considered a sin to refuse a calling.
7. "Magic" underwear that will protect you from harm.
8. Since most of the world doesn't realize there is a difference in the Mormon sects, I'll throw polygamy in here.
9. The priesthood ban.

Any others you would like to add that make the church more cult-ish than a normal religion should be?

10. Doesn't play well with others in an age and country where different religions were allowed to mix. Had to go off and find their own lands.

I would add:

11. Cutting you off from family and friends so much that they can't come to your wedding (i.e sealing).

12. Taking young people and sending them far away from family and friends t oserve on "missions".

13. Only allowing those "missionaries" to watch, listen to, and read church-approved items.

The C word is thrown around so much by the evangelicals it has lost a lot of meaning. To mainstream christianity, a cult is any new religion that doesn't follow their interpretation of the Bible. Most religions have some cult aspects. That being said, the most unhealthy parts of Mormonism to me is the emphasis on obedience to a group of guys in SLC, the excessive reverence for Joseph Smith, and the emphasis on temples, tithing, and missionary work.

When you step back and look at Mormonism objectively, it becomes clear that the church does not exist to serve the members, the members exist to serve the church.

Scottie wrote:1. Secret temple rituals.
2. Forcing members to pay money to participate in the secret temple rituals. I think "force" is an inaccurate word here. No one is "forced" to do anything. However, members cannot receive a temple recommend without paying a full tithe. And, I agree that there is immense cultural pressure to do so, particularly if you want to see your kids' marriages.
3. Calling the leader "The Prophet" I don't really see a difference between calling a Church leader "The Prophet" or "The Pope". It's a religious leadership reference.
4. Wealthy leaders, while the membership struggles to pay tithes.
5. Undisclosed financials.
6. Excessive time investment highly encourage. In fact, it is considered a sin to refuse a calling.
7. "Magic" underwear that will protect you from harm. The temple garment is referred to as symbolic of spiritual protection. It is a radical view that the garment physically protects you from harm.
8. Since most of the world doesn't realize there is a difference in the Mormon sects, I'll throw polygamy in here. Actually, most people do recognize that Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints no longer practices polygamy. I agree, however, that practicing it at all was "cultish".
9. The priesthood ban. Are you referring to women not holding the priesthood, or the ban on black males which is no longer an issue? If you are referring to women, I don't really see how this is "cult-like". Many mainstream religions do not allow women to hold priesthood.

Hi Scottie! I will admit that the line is a very fine one, and I'm speaking as an active member. However, I think that a couple of your points need to be clarified. I still love you, though. ;)

My comments are in blue above.

Overall, I do think you make some good points, and these are things that, as a member, I struggle with as well.

SatanWasSetUp wrote:The C word is thrown around so much by the evangelicals it has lost a lot of meaning. To mainstream christianity, a cult is any new religion that doesn't follow their interpretation of the Bible. Most religions have some cult aspects. That being said, the most unhealthy parts of Mormonism to me is the emphasis on obedience to a group of guys in SLC, the excessive reverence for Joseph Smith, and the emphasis on temples, tithing, and missionary work.

When you step back and look at Mormonism objectively, it becomes clear that the church does not exist to serve the members, the members exist to serve the church.

Well said!

I regard the teaching that you should "avoid the appearance of evil" and that extends to anything that can even remotely be considered contrary to Mormon doctrine as the most distinguished cult-like feature of the church. If the Mormon church isn't a cult, then there is no such thing as a cult.

The main reason Mormons don't want to acknowledge that the church is a cult is that they don't like to think they've been fooled, and they can't accept that "God's restored church" could possibly qualify as a cult, but the fact remains that the majority of the features that indicate a cult are present in the church, whether they like it or not.

They can deny it all they want, just like certain embarrassed Germans who claim the holocaust was fiction. The desire for something to be true (or false) doesn't make it so.

Scottie wrote:
1. Secret temple rituals.

Would you classify Masonry as a cult?

Scottie wrote:2. Forcing members to pay money to participate in the secret temple rituals.

Forcing? No one has to pay tithing if they don't want to. If you belong to a club, and you don't pay your annual fees, do you want dinner at the club? People pay tithing because they believe, not because they are "forced to believe".

Scottie wrote:3. Calling the leader "The Prophet"

And this is the sign of a cult? The Pope is considered the spiritual father of Catholics, the only one who can speak with doctrinal authority. He is also a Head of State, so politics and religion are combined. From the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church of Christ (1870):

"if anyone says that blessed Peter the apostle was not appointed by Christ the Lord as prince of all the apostles and visible head of the whole church militant; or that it was a primacy of honor only and not one of true and proper jurisdiction that he directly and immediately received from our Lord Jesus Christ Himself: let him be anathema...whoever succeeds to the Chair of Peter obtains by the institution of Christ Himself, the primacy of Peter over the whole church"... the definition of the Ecumenical Council of Florence, which must be believed by all faithful Christians, namely that the apostolic see and the Roman pontiff hold a worldwide primacy, and that the Roman pontiff is the successor of blessed Peter, the prince of the apostles, true vicar of Christ, head of the whole church and father and teacher of all Christian people,"

Is the Catholic Church a cult?

Scottie wrote:4. Wealthy leaders, while the membership struggles to pay tithes.

If this is the sign of a cult, then Catholicism must also be a cult. Does Africa and South America ring a bell?

Scottie wrote:5. Undisclosed financials.

Not disclosing financials could be classified as "cult-ish". But it doesn't make the Church a cult.

Scottie wrote:6. Excessive time investment highly encourage. In fact, it is considered a sin to refuse a calling.

The consolidated schedule was introduced in 1980 so members could have more time with their families. "Excessive time investment" in Church activities was discouraged if it took away from family time. Who can remember when there were three meetings on Sunday, occupying the whole day? It was cut back to three hours, and my understanding is that the idea of two hours is now being bandied about.

It is not a "sin" to refuse a calling. Most bishops are pretty reasonable. Likewise, it's not a "sin" to ask for a release from a calling. I've done it, and I wasn't sent to the gallows.

Scottie wrote:7. "Magic" underwear that will protect you from harm.

How is this a sign of a cult?

Scottie wrote:8. Since most of the world doesn't realize there is a difference in the Mormon sects, I'll throw polygamy in here.

So Islam is also a cult? No doubt. Judaism is also a cult since polygamy was practised by the Patriarchs. Are you aware of bigamy and polygamy in the Medieval Christian Church? See Owen Chadwick, The Reformation.

Scottie wrote:9. The priesthood ban.

Mormonism was the only religion to officially have a ban. Other Christian churches in America did not allow fellowship with blacks, or limited it.

Long after public opinion had forced Christians to abandon the practice of slavery, the prevailing orthodoxy was that non-whites were inferior spiritually, morally, and mentally. Once again the Bible was cited as proof. A favourite prooftext was "Let them live; but let them be hewers of wood and drawers of water…" (Joshua 9:21). All Churches maintained systems of racial discrimination and sustained them well into the twentieth century, including segregated churches and church-schools. Racial segregation was opposed largely by atheist intellectuals and other free thinkers. It was not bishops or clergymen, but unbelievers like Bertrand Russell who spread the idea that all should be treated equally.
In the USA where Christian values were strongest, millions of whites belonged to the Ku Klux Klan, an organisation extolled by all manner of churchmen. The Klan was so well accepted as a desirable part of Christian American life that it commonly featured in the media - both factual and fictional, and was enormously popular.

The above is not entirely true. There were ministers of religion opposed to racism, and some evidence of this is contained in Dr. Eric Williams' British Historians and the West Indies. But Williams also showed how other ministers compared blacks to horses.

Scottie wrote:Any others you would like to add that make the church more cult-ish than a normal religion should be?

What is a "normal religion"?

I might even ask, what is "normal"?

"History is nothing but a tableau of crimes and misfortunes." - Voltaire.

SatanWasSetUp wrote:When you step back and look at Mormonism objectively, it becomes clear that the church does not exist to serve the members, the members exist to serve the church.

Could you describe for me the "objective" method you used to come to this conclusion?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Some Schmo wrote:If the Mormon church isn't a cult, then there is no such thing as a cult.

I agree with Schmo. There is no such thing as a cult.