DiscussMormonism.com

Over on the other board, it's taboo to compare Mormonism to "fringe" religions like The Branch Davidians or the People's Temple, but sometimes I think the comparison is apt. Now before anyone says I'm suggesting that Mormonism is comparably violent or suicidal or controlling as these two groups, let me explain.

It's a common argument among Mormon believers that there's no way Joseph Smith would have gone to his death in Carthage if the church weren't true. No one would do something like that. Thus, Joseph Smith must have been telling the truth about his religious experiences. But in Jim Jones and David Koresh (and many other religious figures) we have people who did go to their graves defending their religious callings, and yet no Mormon accepts them as being of God. Can we say with certainty what motivated these people to choose death in support of their religion?

The other way that these groups parallel Mormonism is in how their followers defend the indefensible. A while back, I heard an NPR report on the anniversary of the Jonestown mass suicide, and I was stunned to hear an interview with a woman who was in the People's Temple religion and still believes. She happened to be away from Jonestown at the time of the suicide and thus was spared. She said (and I'm quoting from memory), "People like to dwell on all the deaths, but no one ever talks about the good things Jim Jones did for his people." I presume she means the good things he did for them before killing them. I hear the same kinds of things from my LDS family members and friends. It doesn't matter what Joseph Smith did; if God told him to take other men's wives for his own while the husbands were away, then it must have been right. Besides, even if it isn't true, Mormonism is still a wonderful lifestyle.

My exit from the church came when I realized a few years ago that I was like this woman: I was rationalizing away terrible things because I had a testimony. I was swallowing my sense of right and wrong in defense of a religion. I can't do that anymore.

Very, very well said, Runtu.

This is an interesting post. I have a fascination with the People's Temple. The topic came up for me again recently because of an article in Sports Illustrated (of all places!) about Jim Jones Jr. and his son Rob Jones, and the part basketball has played in their lives (Jim Jones Jr. missed the massacre because he was playing basketball in a neighboring city as part of an "outreach program"). It's true - if you look at Jim Jones up to a certain point (when the paranoia set in and he isolated his group; hmm... what does that sound like?), he did some wonderful thing. He adopted children of all races, giving his name to a little black boy (Jim Jones Jr.), and set up a wonderful program in San Francisco for the needy and downtrodden. People loved him. And then. . . Yes, there are people who still believe in Jones and his message, despite the murders and suicides he brought on in the end. And they do rationalize that part away, and compartmentalize the rest.

I'm in that camp that believes that the actions of God's purported representatives should be considered, along with the message they purport to bring. Joseph Smith fails the smell test.

I don't think Joseph's death proves anything. That he never denied it may add strength to his witness but people have died for much stupider causes for centuries.

Hi Runtu...

Exactly.

Believers of many religions think their are unique...they think their spiritual experiences are better, more real, more divine, more true. (Did you happen to catch Tom Cruise on the youtube video discussing his beliefs)? Faith and devotion and belief to true believers have little to do with what is taught, believed, or written as scripture.

People can (and do) dismiss anything and everything so long as they believe. I find this one of the most fascinating of all dynamics of the human with regard to belief.

I remember a while back on another board, asking if a neighbor man did the same things as did Joseph Smith, would folks be OK with it, and I was chastised for denigrating Joseph Smith. Weird.

;-)

~dancer~

I generally don't like to compare Joseph Smith to Jim Jones or Heavens Gate. These are the extreme examples of cults, and will usually raise defenses VERY quickly.

Joseph Smith seems much more like Oral Roberts to me.

Like I said over at MAD, if you look at Joseph Smith life, you can actually SEE him getting more and more daring with his cons, until it finally ended with him declaring himself king!

They argue back that if he were as terrible as I make him out to be, how could he develop such incredible love and devotion from his followers, who were intelligent, honorable men and women?

Well, first, when you are actually in the situation, it looks a WHOLE lot different than being out, many years later. Second, if you were a con man, would you perform a con by being a brash, rude boor, or by acting like the salt of the earth? I have no doubt that Joseph Smith had ample charisma and was able to garner a loyalty that is hard to find. Does that make him a prophet? No more than Oral Roberts claims to have spoken to Jesus and raised a million dollars from intelligent, honorable men and women.

truth dancer wrote:I remember a while back on another board, asking if a neighbor man did the same things as did Joseph Smith, would folks be OK with it, and I was chastised for denigrating Joseph Smith. Weird.

Juliann once chastised a poster for comparing the beloved prophet with that repugnant, immoral false prophet, Warren Jeffs!!

The Nehor wrote:... but people have died for much stupider causes for centuries.

Like resistance to smilies.

I think these are valid and important comparisons. I tend to prefer Heaven's Gate, because prior to killing themselves, many of these believers castrated themselves, as well. I would venture to guess that anyone willing to castrate himself for God, really, really, really believes God has told him the "Truth".

I guess it just hurts the feelings of MADdite believers too much to bear the comparison, though. Sniff.

Runtu wrote:Over on the other board, it's taboo to compare Mormonism to "fringe" religions like The Branch Davidians or the People's Temple, but sometimes I think the comparison is apt.

Yes, I was suspended for making the comparison a few months ago, and I was actually surprised that I "couldn't" at least make the comparison there without censure.

I agree the comparison is a bit over the top, but really not by much. All these men required great (if not total) dedication of members, were nearly deified, or at least had the unique, special authority from God, had multiple sexual partners, and in the end, died for the cause.

The main reason I wouldn't put Mormonism in the same category is that people can leave without threat of physical death (although I might argue they certainly threaten with "spiritual death," as the final letters from the church to those resigning pretty much make clear). I think Brigham's time might have come close though...I had an ancestor who's barn was burned down by the Danites for not paying his tithing. Fortunately (for me at least), times have changed.