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I've been thinking about this lately -- in matters of religion and elsewhere, there is always the question of certainty, knowledge...and the proof that one needs to make a conclusion. What is absolute proof?

As an eye doctor, I can assure you that vision can be decevieng. The eyes are good, and generally trustworthy, but not always. So if one says "I saw it with my own eyes," it may be 99.9 % "proof" that it happened, but not 100% I'm sure the same can be said for the other senses.

We often hear about "spiritual witness." Charity frequently promotes her claim that she has had "witness" that gives her enough proof to say she "knows the church is true." Nehor talks to God -- and I assume hears back, so he (I assume) claims that this is enough proof that he "knows" God exists. And so on.

So one question I have is, what is a spiritual witness? Charity often insists it is not a feeling. What sense, or senses, are used to receive this witness? Why is it so vaguely defined? And why does it seem to be so diverse, even among Mormons. I know that for the first 40 years of my life, I claimed to have received this witness, but I interpret what it was differently today. But maybe I was/am just wrong!

One reason I'm a bit more curious than normal is that I was reading the recent Sunstone presentation by Dr. Robert Beckstead regarding the possible use of hallucinogens by Joseph to induce visions:

http://www.mormonelixirs.org/assets/pdf ... shroom.pdf

...and thought about the possibility that many of us misinterpret what our brain "sees" at times for reality. Perhaps in a dream state, we have an experience that is so real, then later when we try to re-construct it, we create a dramatic event that we could swear was real....

Your thoughts?

I think it falls under a sixth sense. The word feeling is used because the English (and most other languages) have no closer description. I really think LDS should come up with a vocabulary for different kinds of experiences.

Frangelations, Dipsoborf, Wenallate. Just throwing out ideas. ;)

Not to long ago my wife and I were discussing my degrading faith in the church. Knowing full well that words like, "evidence", and "reason" are nasty words to a TBM, I simiply said, "It just doesn't feel right", which is true. After reading all I could absorb for a year and some, it just didn't feel right.

She said, "That's it? That's it? 'You just don't feel right?' What the h*ll? How can you just throw your whole life down the toilet on just a feeling?"

Even today, when I think about that conversation, I chuckle at the irony.

During my time off work this week I've been going through some of my old journals, of which I have over some 2,000 pages. It has been quite a learning experience. What I learned is how I was often, not just seldom, wrong in my feelings about what was happening and what was going to happen, especially when I was going through separation and divorce. This re-reading experience has made me a bit more skeptical of my own feelings. With the benefit of hindsight it's easy to see where you were wrong. I think I was also naïve at the time, and misjudged situations to mean something which they didn't mean. Of course, with hindsight, I know this now. So I've become a bit more skeptical of my own feelings because of this experience. I highly recommend a personal journal. In years to come it can be like having a near death experience and seeing your life in paranomic vision, and everything that happened at the time makes sense in retrospect (what you did, what others did, what motivated actions, and events become clearer), but only in retrospect.

Forgive me repeating myself. The strongest spiritual witness I received in my life was as a BYU student while praying if I should marry a particular individual. I had been fasting and praying for comfort as well as a confirmation that I had made the right decision to wait for this individual and marry him. I had gotten up from kneeling, turned around and was caught up in this sudden feeling. I felt as though I was lifted up off the ground in an incredibly soft blanket. I was suspended like that for probably a few seconds. When returned to the ground (mind you I was not physically off the ground at this time, it was the feeling of being caught up in the air) my troubled feelings were gone. I was perfectly at peace. He had left on a mission, this man. Each time I prayed for him, prayed about us, expressed my desire in prayer to go to the temple when he returned this same peaceful feeling would bubble up inside me. The whole time he was gone I was caught up into this feeling of peace and assurity. I didn't date by choice, I consentrated on being worthy so I could go to the temple and be married when he returned.

He returned in July, in November he said he was in love with someone else. They married in the temple within the next few months.

I had to leave. Had to. I became so depressed I was suicidal. While before that peaceful feeling would come so easily there was no receiving it now. I received blessings from my home teachers, I visited with the Bishop, I went to family members and asked for blessings. There was no help for me as I fell through the emptiness. When I got done falling, when I hit the bottom I was at the blackest, darkest, most hopeless point of my life. I had nothing inside me. This was so much more than an engagement breaking up as I lost my faith in the process. The first real wave of life washed it all away. I stood up, I started taking one step at a time and I swore I would never repeat that mistake.

Really it's worked out well for me. I live a very happy life and feel so lucky, so fortunate for the things I have. My expectations for life have been exceeded x10.

It leaves me with a Catch-22 of sorts because I'm willing to still consider that was God - if it was God, though, God's plan for me was to leave the church. To me, that is the only way the experience makes any kind of sense.

The Nehor wrote:I think it falls under a sixth sense. The word feeling is used because the English (and most other languages) have no closer description. I really think LDS should come up with a vocabulary for different kinds of experiences.

Frangelations, Dipsoborf, Wenallate. Just throwing out ideas. ;)

Thanks Nehor! I suspect a "sixth sense" would be what is required, since feelings are so vague and misinterpretable (my word). My vote would be for "frangelations."

(wink smilie)

MishMagnet wrote:Forgive me repeating myself. The strongest spiritual witness I received in my life was as a BYU student while praying if I should marry a particular individual. I had been fasting and praying for comfort as well as a confirmation that I had made the right decision to wait for this individual and marry him. I had gotten up from kneeling, turned around and was caught up in this sudden feeling. I felt as though I was lifted up off the ground in an incredibly soft blanket. I was suspended like that for probably a few seconds. When returned to the ground (mind you I was not physically off the ground at this time, it was the feeling of being caught up in the air) my troubled feelings were gone. I was perfectly at peace. He had left on a mission, this man. Each time I prayed for him, prayed about us, expressed my desire in prayer to go to the temple when he returned this same peaceful feeling would bubble up inside me. The whole time he was gone I was caught up into this feeling of peace and assurity. I didn't date by choice, I consentrated on being worthy so I could go to the temple and be married when he returned.

He returned in July, in November he said he was in love with someone else. They married in the temple within the next few months.

Yeah, this is what I'm talking about too. Striking coincidence that you should post that.

Ray A wrote:During my time off work this week I've been going through some of my old journals, of which I have over some 2,000 pages. It has been quite a learning experience. What I learned is how I was often, not just seldom, wrong in my feelings about what was happening and what was going to happen, especially when I was going through separation and divorce. This re-reading experience has made me a bit more skeptical of my own feelings. With the benefit of hindsight it's easy to see where you were wrong. I think I was also naïve at the time, and misjudged situations to mean something which they didn't mean. Of course, with hindsight, I know this now. So I've become a bit more skeptical of my own feelings because of this experience. I highly recommend a personal journal. In years to come it can be like having a near death experience and seeing your life in paranomic vision, and everything that happened at the time makes sense in retrospect (what you did, what others did, what motivated actions, and events become clearer), but only in retrospect.

My journals show the opposite when I read them. Sure I was wrong but I never ascribed my wrongness to revelation. I'm amazed when I read through at how many snippets of my future I'd seen even when I was an arrogant git teenager.

(As opposed to now when I am an ever so slightly less gittish tweenager.)

Ten Bear wrote:Not to long ago my wife and I were discussing my degrading faith in the church. Knowing full well that words like, "evidence", and "reason" are nasty words to a TBM, I simiply said, "It just doesn't feel right", which is true. After reading all I could absorb for a year and some, it just didn't feel right.

She said, "That's it? That's it? 'You just don't feel right?' What the h*ll? How can you just throw your whole life down the toilet on just a feeling?"

Even today, when I think about that conversation, I chuckle at the irony.

Well, maybe because it was a "feeling" and not a "witness!"

(I'm being facetious, by the way...)

My experiences would have to be classified under a sixth sense also, because no emotion is what I experienced.

Mish, I am very sorry for your experinece.