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My father passed away from cancer in 1998. He was a fantastic father, and I honestly believe that if I am one-tenth the person he was, I will be happy. He volunteered his time with the Boy Scouts, and coached his kids little league teams and basketball teams. He never once missed one of my piano recitals, flute solos, or any of my choir performances. He would often drive us for hours to do these things because we lived literally in the middle of nowhere. He was a good man.

During these many road trips my father and I would often talk about things that were important to us. My Dad was never a religious man, he didn't buy into the LDS Church's explanation of things and I agreed with him. When I was a teenager I stopped attending church, and my Dad never once judged me for it. He stood by me no matter what.

On one of these road trips (I remember it very clearly) we got to talking about Mormonism and how the Young Women's leader in my area wouldn't leave me alone. She would stop by my house multiple times a week inviting me to various functions and church events. She basically took it upon herself to make me an active member again. I complained to my father about this, and told him that even her kids would ask me to events when I was at school. He told me that she meant well, and she was convinced she was right and we were wrong. He told me that he didn't buy into Mormonism for the same reasons I didn't, and that a person's beliefs are personal.

He told me he didn't want his temple work done for him when he was gone. He told me that. He told me no matter what, to make sure people knew about his wishes. It was important to him.

4 months after he passed away, I received a phone call from one of his TBM sisters. She told me that they were planning on doing Dad's temple work in the Manti, UT temple and invited us along. I immediately voiced that my Dad did not, under any circumstances want this work done. He had made it clear to me. My words were brushed aside and I was told that he would have a choice in heaven whether or not to accept the gospel. I told my aunt that he had no accepted the gospel while he was here and he wasn't going to change his mind. He knew it was bunk. I was ignored. More importantly, my father's wishes were ignored.

Fast forward a couple weeks and my immediate family waits outside the Manti temple while this temple work is being done. My Mom, brother and I didn't have temple recommends, so we were given the job of babysitters for all the little cousins that couldn't go inside the temple. It was just another insult in my opinion.

Not only was this organized institution judging my moral character by not allowing me inside, it was ignoring the request of my father... which I find incredibly immoral.

My Mom was raised in the church, and she had a testimony at the time. I asked her why it was that we were not allowed in the temple, and she told me that we were not going to church regularly, paying tithing, and we hadn't had a meeting with the bishop. I then asked her what would happen if I just walked in... she looked me right in the eye and said, "Sydney... anyone unworthy to attend the temple that steps foot in one will be known immediately." Apparently, she was taught that the temples were such amazing places that anyone unworthy to attend would be asked to leave by a priesthood holder. The holy ghost wouldn't allow unworthy people inside to be so close to God. She shared with me some faith-promoting stories to back up her claim. "A session was about to begin when the person officiating felt a dark presence... he walked up to a young man in the room and promptly asked him to leave. Later it was found that he had been having an affair with his neighbor." I rolled my eyes and went on with the boring babysitting.

A few months later, I got a phone call from my Mom telling me that my aunt and uncle were getting a divorce, and that I should give my cousins a call to see if they needed anything... or anyone to talk to. I asked my Mom why my aunt and uncle were getting divorced and she told me to sit down. I did.

It turns out that my Uncle (who was inside the temple for my father's sealing) had been dealing with a heroin problem for a few years and no one knew. He had almost died from an overdose, and he was also robbed from his drug dealer and left in the Las Vegas sunshine unconscious. When someone finally found him he had to be hospitalized for his horrible sunburn.

I was in absolute shock. This family seemed to be the perfect true-blue-Mormon family. Perfect kids, perfect house, kids got straight A's, played instruments, and went to church regularly. It turns out it was just a front... they were dealing with some horrible issues inside the walls of their own home but no one knew about it. Not even their bishop. Turns out my uncle was higher than a kite that day at the temple.

Where does this leave me? Well, I believe this basically proves those faith-promoting stories my Mom told me untrue. It also proves the discernment powers of the priesthood untrue... and it proves to me that the church believes it is doing the right thing no matter what, and your personal opinion or request to be left out of temple ceremonies will be ignored because they are doing "The Lord's Work."

My question to you guys is this: How is it that my Mother, a complete saint (really... I am not just saying that), wasn't allowed in that temple, but my higher-than-a-kite uncle was? Why is it that my Uncle was deemed worthy, and my mother unworthy? Why does the church feel it has the right to judge people this way? Why is it that non-Mormon family members have to wait outside a temple while their loved one is getting married and people like my uncle (who has since received help for his problem and is doing much better) are allowed in?

Wintersfootsteps wrote:My question to you guys is this: How is it that my Mother, a complete saint (really... I am not just saying that), wasn't allowed in that temple, but my higher-than-a-kite uncle was? Why is it that my Uncle was deemed worthy, and my mother unworthy? Why does the church feel it has the right to judge people this way? Why is it that non-Mormon family members have to wait outside a temple while their loved one is getting married and people like my uncle (who has since received help for his problem and is doing much better) are allowed in?

It simply means that there's no such thing as 'spiritual discernment' or 'revelation' or any such nonsense. It also means that some people are true to themselves, while others put on a 'front' for various reasons.

Sounds like you had a great dad. I can only hope to be likewise.

Glad your uncle is doing better.

I would say that the LDS church is a tribe and it excludes people real quickly if someone is not like them. They don't like outsiders. I'm studying the old testament now that I finished - the unathorized version - truth and fiction in the Bible by robin lane fox - They Jews were just like Latter Day Saints - telling people they were God's people. The Jews said no to marriage outside the tribe. They had their own rituals. What you have experienced was done to other people in other cultures since man kind began. Some tribes - especially LDS tribes deal with shame and guilt - but that can only be used for a time before it comes back full force. I was banished by the tribe when I was 19 and still had the software in my mind for last t two and a half decades that I needed to get back into the tribe and marry someone in the tribe or I couldn't go to the best place in the afterlife. It's sad but there are millions of stories that are worse. Although it's just a dream and would never occur, I wished they had a reformed LDS church and a conservative church much like the Jews today have each. I think you would see more active people in the reformed church - A church that is less judgmental and more toward the philosopy of all are sick and in need of a mediator and savior. You would think watching some TBM's that they are the last person who would have anything to do with Jesus Christ since they don't pray to him and feel towing the line makes them whole.

Wintersfootsteps wrote: Not only was this organized institution judging my moral character by not allowing me inside, it was ignoring the request of my father... which I find incredibly immoral.

Temples are places of special worship for people who hold a specific set of beliefs. They are not public buildings. Your moral character wasn't being judged. You did not hold those specific beliefs. For you to be present in the temple would have been an intrusion on the private worship of those with those beliefs. But it was not your character that was being judged.

And the "Church" did not ignore your father's request. Temple work is done when requested by a family member. And a sister or brother has that right. But the Church does not initiate temple work.

Wintersfootsteps wrote:
Where does this leave me? Well, I believe this basically proves those faith-promoting stories my Mom told me untrue. It also proves the discernment powers of the priesthood untrue... and it proves to me that the church believes it is doing the right thing no matter what, and your personal opinion or request to be left out of temple ceremonies will be ignored because they are doing "The Lord's Work."

To say that discerment is untrue is like saying because a doctor has one patient who dies that he is a quack. Discernment has been demoksntrated in many instances. In some, individuals have deceitfully slipped through. Maybe that priesthood holder was not feeling well that day, or just wasn't spiritually in tune. You can't judge everyone by what happened to one person.

And again, the Church did not do the temple work for your father. A family member did that.

Wintersfootsteps wrote:
My question to you guys is this: How is it that my Mother, a complete saint (really... I am not just saying that), wasn't allowed in that temple, but my higher-than-a-kite uncle was? Why is it that my Uncle was deemed worthy, and my mother unworthy? Why does the church feel it has the right to judge people this way? Why is it that non-Mormon family members have to wait outside a temple while their loved one is getting married and people like my uncle (who has since received help for his problem and is doing much better) are allowed in?

Your mother was not allowed in, not because she wasn't a good person, but she could not demonstrate to the bishop that she carried those specific set of beliefs that all members must have to enter the temple. And your uncle should not have been allowed to, at that time. He had to have been deceitful in his temple recommend interview in order to do so.

I hope you uncle is really doing better.

I also hope that you do not become bitter over what was a very well intentioned action by your father's family. They had the best of intentions. They were doing what they thought was in his best interests.

charity wrote:
Temples are places of special worship for people who hold a specific set of beliefs. They are not public buildings. Your moral character wasn't being judged. You did not hold those specific beliefs. For you to be present in the temple would have been an intrusion on the private worship of those with those beliefs. But it was not your character that was being judged.

And the "Church" did not ignore your father's request. Temple work is done when requested by a family member. And a sister or brother has that right. But the Church does not initiate temple work.

Why then were hundreds of thousands of holocaust victims baptized in the temples? Not because their families wanted it done, I can assure you that. The church doesn't care about the personal beliefs of the person, the only thing they care about is getting those numbers higher and higher (people going to the temple to do work, as well as people baptized to the faith before/after death).

I can assure you that my family members wouldn't have done this unless the church taught them it was important to do so. The church makes it very clear that this work should be done, doesn't it?

Charity wrote:To say that discerment is untrue is like saying because a doctor has one patient who dies that he is a quack. Discernment has been demoksntrated in many instances. In some, individuals have deceitfully slipped through. Maybe that priesthood holder was not feeling well that day, or just wasn't spiritually in tune. You can't judge everyone by what happened to one person.

And again, the Church did not do the temple work for your father. A family member did that.

Let me put it this way... if you want me to believe in the Mormon religion, give them 10% of everything I have, give them my time, attention, and devotion it is up to THEM to prove it to ME. Prove the powers of discernment... you can't! They don't exist. It's just another faith-promoting rumor to make the priesthood seem more powerful.

Take, for example, patriarchial blessings... These are blessings given by older, priesthood holders that share what a person's life will be like if they continue to live by the gospel. Do you know how many times these blessings are wrong? More than you would probably like to admit. How many times have I read a blessing that promised a young woman a large family to raise in the gospel, or promise a young man that he will go on an international mission only to have that not happen? These blessings were wrong because the person giving them doesn't have the ability to see into the future, and has no powers of discernment about what will happen in their lives. That is why so many of these blessings sound exactly the same...

Charity wrote:Your mother was not allowed in, not because she wasn't a good person, but she could not demonstrate to the bishop that she carried those specific set of beliefs that all members must have to enter the temple. And your uncle should not have been allowed to, at that time. He had to have been deceitful in his temple recommend interview in order to do so.

I hope you uncle is really doing better.

I also hope that you do not become bitter over what was a very well intentioned action by your father's family. They had the best of intentions. They were doing what they thought was in his best interests.

My point is that my uncle was obviously able to fool his bishop. He fooled his bishop into believing that he carried out those specific beliefs that would allow him in the temple. He was deceitful in his interviews, where was the powers of discernment? Why couldn't the bishop see he was lying? Because those powers don't exist. Again, I will give you the opportunity to prove they exist.

My uncle is now off drugs (at least we believe he is off drugs, we could be getting fooled).

If my family had the best intentions for my father, they would have listened to his wishes. Period.

"worthyness" is the tool Mormonism uses to create false authority over its sheep. Its all up to the adherent to reinforce this guilt because there IS no "spirit of discernment". Your uncles case underscores this. Those who bow to the whims of the church are the ones subjected to its silly rules. Those who ignore the rules and keep up pretenses recieve social benefits within Mormonism as much as those who do follow the rules. This dichotomy makes the uselessness of Mormonism as an effective system of living extremely evident.

Read your account with interest.

Your dad sounded like a great man. (I had a great dad too) I think the family members who requested that your dad have his temple work done (or the church, if done independantly) were wrong to do this without your fathers consent. It was his choice and his choice should have been respected.

I think it is really difficult for many active Mormons to see how hurtful and offensive it can be, when they are so convinced that they are doing right.

It isn't helped by the fact that (I believe) there isn't another church on the earth that baptises or does temple work posthumously.

If Muslims believed that (I know they don't) everyone had to be baptised Muslim, and have their pilgrimages done posthumously you can bet that many Mormons would object. They would see it as an afront to their own beliefs. Understandably so.

Mary

Miss Taken wrote:Read your account with interest.

Your dad sounded like a great man. (I had a great dad too) I think the family members who requested that your dad have his temple work done (or the church, if done independantly) were wrong to do this without your fathers consent. It was his choice and his choice should have been respected.

I think it is really difficult for many active Mormons to see how hurtful and offensive it can be, when they are so convinced that they are doing right.

It isn't helped by the fact that (I believe) there isn't another church on the earth that baptises or does temple work posthumously.

If Muslims believed that (I know they don't) everyone had to be baptised Muslim, and have their pilgrimages done posthumously you can bet that many Mormons would object. They would see it as an afront to their own beliefs. Understandably so.

Mary

Thank you for the kind words Mary, I appreciate it.

I couldn't agree more that most active Mormons can't understand how hurtful and offensive things like this are... sometimes I feel like I let my Dad down by letting this happen... but I couldn't have stopped it. They would have done it no matter what.

Wintersfootsteps wrote:Thank you for the kind words Mary, I appreciate it.

I couldn't agree more that most active Mormons can't understand how hurtful and offensive things like this are... sometimes I feel like I let my Dad down by letting this happen... but I couldn't have stopped it. They would have done it no matter what.

I don't think you let your dad down at all. Those who went against his wishes let him down and showed no respect for his beliefs in my opinion.
If life goes on (and I believe it does) then he'll be up there loving you just the same. That's how I feel about my dad anyways...

For me all this baptising for the dead stuff, makes 'fluff' important. What is important is the heart not the outward sign. In my opinion.

Mary

Wintersfootsteps wrote:
charity wrote:


Temples are places of special worship for people who hold a specific set of beliefs. They are not public buildings. Your moral character wasn't being judged. You did not hold those specific beliefs. For you to be present in the temple would have been an intrusion on the private worship of those with those beliefs. But it was not your character that was being judged.

And the "Church" did not ignore your father's request. Temple work is done when requested by a family member. And a sister or brother has that right. But the Church does not initiate temple work.

Why then were hundreds of thousands of holocaust victims baptized in the temples? Not because their families wanted it done, I can assure you that. The church doesn't care about the personal beliefs of the person, the only thing they care about is getting those numbers higher and higher (people going to the temple to do work, as well as people baptized to the faith before/after death). [/quote]

Because some people initiated the work when they shouldn't have. And let me assure you, there is no economic advantage to the Church or its members in doing temple work. Obviously, since you think it is all about tithing, dead people don't pay tithing.

Wintersfootsteps wrote:
charity wrote:

Temples are places of special worship for people who hold a specific set of beliefs. They are not public buildings. Your moral character wasn't being judged. You did not hold those specific beliefs. For you to be present in the temple would have been an intrusion on the private worship of those with those beliefs. But it was not your character that was being judged.

And the "Church" did not ignore your father's request. Temple work is done when requested by a family member. And a sister or brother has that right. But the Church does not initiate temple work.

Wintersfootsteps wrote:
I can assure you that my family members wouldn't have done this unless the church taught them it was important to do so. The church makes it very clear that this work should be done, doesn't it?

Of course, they were taught that ordinances were important. They loved your father and they wanted him to be happy. I am sure they thought your father would have changed his mine when he got to the other side. Then he would have wanted his work done. Remember, proxy work does not obligate the person to do anything he/she doesn't want to do. If you father is still persisting in thinking that the Church is bunk, it won't make any difference what anyone on earth has done about it.

Wintersfootsteps wrote:
Charity wrote:
To say that discerment is untrue is like saying because a doctor has one patient who dies that he is a quack. Discernment has been demoksntrated in many instances. In some, individuals have deceitfully slipped through. Maybe that priesthood holder was not feeling well that day, or just wasn't spiritually in tune. You can't judge everyone by what happened to one person.

And again, the Church did not do the temple work for your father. A family member did that.

Let me put it this way... if you want me to believe in the Mormon religion, give them 10% of everything I have, give them my time, attention, and devotion it is up to THEM to prove it to ME. Prove the powers of discernment... you can't! They don't exist. It's just another faith-promoting rumor to make the priesthood seem more powerful.

The Church has given you what you need. It is up to you to accept or reject. They don't have to do anything.

Wintersfootsteps wrote:Take, for example, patriarchial blessings... These are blessings given by older, priesthood holders that share what a person's life will be like if they continue to live by the gospel. Do you know how many times these blessings are wrong? More than you would probably like to admit. How many times have I read a blessing that promised a young woman a large family to raise in the gospel, or promise a young man that he will go on an international mission only to have that not happen? These blessings were wrong because the person giving them doesn't have the ability to see into the future, and has no powers of discernment about what will happen in their lives. That is why so many of these blessings sound exactly the same...

Patriarchal blessings are not horoscopes or pronouncements by fortune tellers. They are blessings promised to the individual conditional upon their own choices. They tell what CAN happen in the person's life. If the blessing given by a patriarch were to be absolute, then the person would not have their agency. A person can make choices which negates the blessings. Just as you could tell a person if they went to college and studied, they could become a medical doctor. Then they drop out, go to work at Wendy's, that didn't mean they lacked the ability. They lacked the will.

And the blessings are for the person's entire life, not just this mortal time.

Wintersfootsteps wrote:Charity wrote:
Your mother was not allowed in, not because she wasn't a good person, but she could not demonstrate to the bishop that she carried those specific set of beliefs that all members must have to enter the temple. And your uncle should not have been allowed to, at that time. He had to have been deceitful in his temple recommend interview in order to do so.

I hope you uncle is really doing better.

I also hope that you do not become bitter over what was a very well intentioned action by your father's family. They had the best of intentions. They were doing what they thought was in his best interests.

My point is that my uncle was obviously able to fool his bishop. He fooled his bishop into believing that he carried out those specific beliefs that would allow him in the temple. He was deceitful in his interviews, where was the powers of discernment? Why couldn't the bishop see he was lying? Because those powers don't exist. Again, I will give you the opportunity to prove they exist. [/quote]

Maybe the bishop knew he was, and maybe the bishop was inspired that he should be there. I don't know. You don't know. So you really can't say.

Wintersfootsteps wrote:If my family had the best intentions for my father, they would have listened to his wishes. Period.

What was not in your father's best interest? He wasn't around to be offended. He is either dead and turning to dust with no afterlife, in which case it doesn't matter. Or he is in a better place which has nothing to do with LDS theology, in which case it is a moot point what anyone else on earth does, or he is in a better place which has everything to do with LDS theololgy and understands what is happening, whether he accepts it or not.

So how has your father been harmed?.

Miss Taken wrote:.

I think it is really difficult for many active Mormons to see how hurtful and offensive it can be, when they are so convinced that they are doing right.

It is not the father that is offended. It is the living who are offended, and they cannot pretend it is for the dead.

Miss Taken wrote:.

It isn't helped by the fact that (I believe) there isn't another church on the earth that baptises or does temple work posthumously. If Muslims believed that (I know they don't) everyone had to be baptised Muslim, and have their pilgrimages done posthumously you can bet that many Mormons would object. They would see it as an afront to their own beliefs. Understandably so.

Why? It wouldn't bother me. The truth is the truth, and if their ordinances have no benefit, what is the big deal? If when I die, my Catholic friends want to light candles for me, that is okay by me. People have this idea that if a proxy baptism is done for someone this "forces" that person to be a Mormon. That is plain silly. What does it matter to anyone who doesn't believe what we believe?