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The claim has been made that the inclusion of 478 verses from Isaiah in the Book of Mormon demonstrates conclusively that Joseph Smith “plagiarized” the Book of Mormon.

1. This illustrates the lack of precise thinking on the part of the claimants. The passages in 2 Nephi quite clearly attribute the work to Isaiah. Plagiarism only occurs when the author copies, but does not give credit.
2. Imprecise language does not change the basic nature of the claim, however. What about 478 verses from the KJV in the Book of Mormon?
Of the 478 verses, 201 are exactly as they appear in the KJV, or slightly over 42%. The rest are different in some way. For a full treatment of this concept you can go to
http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/display ... ripts&id=2

But let me give you a major point. A comparison was made of the 478 verses not only as they appear in the KJV and the Book of Mormon, but also the Hebrew Massoretic text (MT), the Hebrew scrolls found at Qumran (notably IQIsa, which contains all sixty-six chapters), the Aramaic Targumim (T), the Peshitta (P), the Septuagint (LXX) or Greek translation, the Old Latin (OL) and Vulgate (V),

In a significant number of instances, where there are differences, the differences in the Book of Mormon agree with these ancient texts. Was Joseph just guessing right?

The article is a fascinating read, but not for the faint hearted. If you still want to maintain that Joseph “plagiarized” the Book of Mormon, DON’T READ THIS!

3. For those who persist in the face of undeniable evidence, there is still the question of how Joseph could have accomplished it. If you still claim he copied pages from the KJV, just how did he do it in front of witnesses without them knowing? As anti’s love to point out, Joseph had his face in a hat. That also means there was no room for pages to read from, and no light to read them if there had been.

So did he memorize all 478 verses with the corrections of the ancients texts? Did he then dictate from memory? You have to account for the fact that when he returned from a break to chop wood, or go to the outhouse, or eat lunch, he started right where he had left off without prompts.

That’s enough for you all to chew on for now.

charity wrote:The claim has been made that the inclusion of 478 verses from Isaiah in the Book of Mormon demonstrates conclusively that Joseph Smith “plagiarized” the Book of Mormon.

1. This illustrates the lack of precise thinking on the part of the claimants. The passages in 2 Nephi quite clearly attribute the work to Isaiah. Plagiarism only occurs when the author copies, but does not give credit.
2. Imprecise language does not change the basic nature of the claim, however. What about 478 verses from the KJV in the Book of Mormon?
Of the 478 verses, 201 are exactly as they appear in the KJV, or slightly over 42%. The rest are different in some way. For a full treatment of this concept you can go to
http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/display ... ripts&id=2

But let me give you a major point. A comparison was made of the 478 verses not only as they appear in the KJV and the Book of Mormon, but also the Hebrew Massoretic text (MT), the Hebrew scrolls found at Qumran (notably IQIsa, which contains all sixty-six chapters), the Aramaic Targumim (T), the Peshitta (P), the Septuagint (LXX) or Greek translation, the Old Latin (OL) and Vulgate (V),

In a significant number of instances, where there are differences, the differences in the Book of Mormon agree with these ancient texts. Was Joseph just guessing right?

The article is a fascinating read, but not for the faint hearted. If you still want to maintain that Joseph “plagiarized” the Book of Mormon, DON’T READ THIS!

3. For those who persist in the face of undeniable evidence, there is still the question of how Joseph could have accomplished it. If you still claim he copied pages from the KJV, just how did he do it in front of witnesses without them knowing? As anti’s love to point out, Joseph had his face in a hat. That also means there was no room for pages to read from, and no light to read them if there had been.

So did he memorize all 478 verses with the corrections of the ancients texts? Did he then dictate from memory? You have to account for the fact that when he returned from a break to chop wood, or go to the outhouse, or eat lunch, he started right where he had left off without prompts.

That’s enough for you all to chew on for now.

Who says the witnesses are telling the truth?

What about the curtain seperating Joseph from the transcriber?

charity wrote:The claim has been made that the inclusion of 478 verses from Isaiah in the Book of Mormon demonstrates conclusively that Joseph Smith “plagiarized” the Book of Mormon.

Plagiarism can exist in the Book of Mormon without the entire document being plagiarized from other sources.

charity wrote:The claim has been made that the inclusion of 478 verses from Isaiah in the Book of Mormon demonstrates conclusively that Joseph Smith “plagiarized” the Book of Mormon.

1. This illustrates the lack of precise thinking on the part of the claimants. The passages in 2 Nephi quite clearly attribute the work to Isaiah. Plagiarism only occurs when the author copies, but does not give credit.
2. Imprecise language does not change the basic nature of the claim, however. What about 478 verses from the KJV in the Book of Mormon?
Of the 478 verses, 201 are exactly as they appear in the KJV, or slightly over 42%. The rest are different in some way. For a full treatment of this concept you can go to
http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/display ... ripts&id=2

But let me give you a major point. A comparison was made of the 478 verses not only as they appear in the KJV and the Book of Mormon, but also the Hebrew Massoretic text (MT), the Hebrew scrolls found at Qumran (notably IQIsa, which contains all sixty-six chapters), the Aramaic Targumim (T), the Peshitta (P), the Septuagint (LXX) or Greek translation, the Old Latin (OL) and Vulgate (V),

In a significant number of instances, where there are differences, the differences in the Book of Mormon agree with these ancient texts. Was Joseph just guessing right?

Nope, no guessing needed. Joseph made almost all his changes by simply removing the italicized words in his English copy of the Bible. Even in his day, Bible readers knew that the italicized words were insertions and emendations from the KJV translators.

The article is a fascinating read, but not for the faint hearted. If you still want to maintain that Joseph “plagiarized” the Book of Mormon, DON’T READ THIS!

I must not be fainthearted, but the idea that Joseph's quoting and revising Isaiah constitutes plagiarism doesn't resonate at all with me. In fact, it seems a bit of a straw man because most critics who talk of plagiarism are not talking about the Isaiah chapters. Rather, we're looking at borrowed concepts and storylines, such as Alma the Younger's story being cribbed from Paul's conversion, or Lehi's retelling of Joseph Smith Sr.'s dream of the tree of life, or quotations and expansions of Paul in pre-Christian Nephite teachings. These are the things that suggest plagiarism.

3. For those who persist in the face of undeniable evidence, there is still the question of how Joseph could have accomplished it. If you still claim he copied pages from the KJV, just how did he do it in front of witnesses without them knowing? As anti’s love to point out, Joseph had his face in a hat. That also means there was no room for pages to read from, and no light to read them if there had been.

We've been over this before. I do not take the witness testimony at face value. In a magic trick, there's what's called the misdirection. The idea that he had his head in a hat the whole time is classic misdirection: he couldn't have done it because it's impossible. That you buy the misdirection 170 years later doesn't say anything about the misdirection itself.

I'm afraid I agree with Mark Twain:

The book seems to be merely a prosy detail of imaginary history, with the
Old Testament for a model; followed by a tedious plagiarism of the New
Testament. The author labored to give his words and phrases the quaint,
old-fashioned sound and structure of our King James's translation of the
Scriptures; and the result is a mongrel--half modern glibness, and half
ancient simplicity and gravity. The latter is awkward and constrained;
the former natural, but grotesque by the contrast. Whenever he found his
speech growing too modern--which was about every sentence or two--he
ladled in a few such Scriptural phrases as "exceeding sore," "and it came
to pass," etc., and made things satisfactory again. "And it came to
pass" was his pet. If he had left that out, his Bible would have been
only a pamphlet.

It's plagiarism of the New Testament, not of Isaiah.

charity wrote:The claim has been made that the inclusion of 478 verses from Isaiah in the Book of Mormon demonstrates conclusively that Joseph Smith “plagiarized” the Book of Mormon.

1. This illustrates the lack of precise thinking on the part of the claimants. The passages in 2 Nephi quite clearly attribute the work to Isaiah. Plagiarism only occurs when the author copies, but does not give credit.

There are a LOT of KJV verses in the Book of Mormon, and the majority of them are not attributed. Furthermore, when one author publishes another author's translation of a foreign-language text under his own name, he has "plagiarized" that translation. Joseph may have changed a few words here or there, but "plagiarism" is nevertheless an accurate term for his use of these KJV Isaiah verses.

2. Imprecise language does not change the basic nature of the claim, however. What about 478 verses from the KJV in the Book of Mormon?
Of the 478 verses, 201 are exactly as they appear in the KJV, or slightly over 42%. The rest are different in some way. For a full treatment of this concept you can go to
http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/display ... ripts&id=2

But let me give you a major point. A comparison was made of the 478 verses not only as they appear in the KJV and the Book of Mormon, but also the Hebrew Massoretic text (MT), the Hebrew scrolls found at Qumran (notably IQIsa, which contains all sixty-six chapters), the Aramaic Targumim (T), the Peshitta (P), the Septuagint (LXX) or Greek translation, the Old Latin (OL) and Vulgate (V),

In a significant number of instances, where there are differences, the differences in the Book of Mormon agree with these ancient texts. Was Joseph just guessing right?

The article is a fascinating read, but not for the faint hearted. If you still want to maintain that Joseph “plagiarized” the Book of Mormon, DON’T READ THIS!

Are you familiar with David P. Wright's essay on Isaiah in the Book of Mormon? If not, then this discussion will not be productive.

-Chris

CaliforniaKid wrote:
Are you familiar with David P. Wright's essay on Isaiah in the Book of Mormon? If not, then this discussion will not be productive.

-Chris

Well, David Wright is an apostate, so we don't need to read his stuff.

GoodK wrote:
Who says the witnesses are telling the truth?

Good question. Except the more people you have to discount, the weaker your argument gets.

GoodK wrote:
What about the curtain seperating Joseph from the transcriber?

Generally considered to have occurred if it did at all, with the 116 pages of text which were lost. When Oliver and Joseph started again, after that happened, Joseph used the seer stone, as described with his face in a hat to shut out the light.

the road to hana wrote:

charity wrote:The claim has been made that the inclusion of 478 verses from Isaiah in the Book of Mormon demonstrates conclusively that Joseph Smith “plagiarized” the Book of Mormon.

Plagiarism can exist in the Book of Mormon without the entire document being plagiarized from other sources.

Example of material which was used without attribution to the original source, please. If you can't provide it, you have no claim.

This will be posted shortly, so I might as well be the one to do it:

http://www.xmission.com/~research/central/isabm1.html

Runtu wrote:
I must not be fainthearted, but the idea that Joseph's quoting and revising Isaiah constitutes plagiarism doesn't resonate at all with me. In fact, it seems a bit of a straw man because most critics who talk of plagiarism are not talking about the Isaiah chapters. Rather, we're looking at borrowed concepts and storylines, such as Alma the Younger's story being cribbed from Paul's conversion, or Lehi's retelling of Joseph Smith Sr.'s dream of the tree of life, or quotations and expansions of Paul in pre-Christian Nephite teachings. These are the things that suggest plagiarism.

Borrowed story lines and concepts do not constitute plagiarism! noun 1. the unauthorized use or close imitation of the language and thoughts of another author and the representation of them as one's own original work

Close imitation! Representing as one's own. Using a story line is not close imitation of langauge. And Joseph NEVER represented the Book of Mormon as his own work. TRANSLATED!

Runtu wrote:

3. For those who persist in the face of undeniable evidence, there is still the question of how Joseph could have accomplished it. If you still claim he copied pages from the KJV, just how did he do it in front of witnesses without them knowing? As anti’s love to point out, Joseph had his face in a hat. That also means there was no room for pages to read from, and no light to read them if there had been.

We've been over this before. I do not take the witness testimony at face value. In a magic trick, there's what's called the misdirection. The idea that he had his head in a hat the whole time is classic misdirection: he couldn't have done it because it's impossible. That you buy the misdirection 170 years later doesn't say anything about the misdirection itself.

"Hey, look people, I have my face in a hat!" And they don't see him running off to read to Oliver out of his Bible. That was some heck of a magic trick. And what was impossible? What do you base you claim of that on?

Runtu wrote:
It's plagiarism of the New Testament, not of Isaiah.

I have never heard of this before. So tell me please some examples.