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Charity, you mentioned that you had possessed a Oija board before you converted to the LDS church at 19 years of age, and that you threw out the Ouija board upon your conversion.

I'm very curious about this. Did you believe, at that time, that the Ouija board actually allowed you to communicate with spirits (evil or otherwise)? Do you believe now that Ouija boards allow people to communicate with real spirits today (evil or otherwise)?

Sethbag wrote:Charity, you mentioned that you had possessed a Oija board before you converted to the LDS church at 19 years of age, and that you threw out the Ouija board upon your conversion.

I'm very curious about this. Did you believe, at that time, that the Ouija board actually allowed you to communicate with spirits (evil or otherwise)? Do you believe now that Ouija boards allow people to communicate with real spirits today (evil or otherwise)?

I believed at the time that there was some kind of communication with some real entity. Then I thought it might be a disembodied spirit. Now, I believe it was an unembodied spirit. And I think in some cases Ouija boards today allow people to communicate with these unembodied spirits.

charity wrote:

Sethbag wrote:Charity, you mentioned that you had possessed a Oija board before you converted to the LDS church at 19 years of age, and that you threw out the Ouija board upon your conversion.

I'm very curious about this. Did you believe, at that time, that the Ouija board actually allowed you to communicate with spirits (evil or otherwise)? Do you believe now that Ouija boards allow people to communicate with real spirits today (evil or otherwise)?

I believed at the time that there was some kind of communication with some real entity. Then I thought it might be a disembodied spirit. Now, I believe it was an unembodied spirit. And I think in some cases Ouija boards today allow people to communicate with these unembodied spirits.

So do you consider them good, benign or evil?

Interesting. I never really believed in oija boards, ghosts, really anything paranormal. I guess it was only a matter of time that I gave up my beliefs in the LDS church. There must be some gene or something that tells us why some people believe weird things, and others don't.

Ouija boards are perhaps the most famous example of an interesting phenomenon called the "ideomotor effect." I happen see another quasi-famous example in my current line of work from time to time. It's called "Facilitated Communication." With you background in psych, you should look it up. The various experiments on it are an excellent way to illustrate sound and unsound scientific methodology.

Ouija boards are perhaps the easiest form of occult mysticism to de-bunk... just ask the operator to close their eyes and do it.. on that note I wonder if President-elect Monson will venture into the vault, and drop Joseph's rock into a hat.. Just to see if he's got the gift..

the road to hana wrote:

charity wrote:

Sethbag wrote:Charity, you mentioned that you had possessed a Oija board before you converted to the LDS church at 19 years of age, and that you threw out the Ouija board upon your conversion.

I'm very curious about this. Did you believe, at that time, that the Ouija board actually allowed you to communicate with spirits (evil or otherwise)? Do you believe now that Ouija boards allow people to communicate with real spirits today (evil or otherwise)?

I believed at the time that there was some kind of communication with some real entity. Then I thought it might be a disembodied spirit. Now, I believe it was an unembodied spirit. And I think in some cases Ouija boards today allow people to communicate with these unembodied spirits.

So do you consider them good, benign or evil?

Evil. It is my opinion that these are unembodied spirits of the 1/3 who were cast out with Satan.

EAllusion wrote:
Ouija boards are perhaps the most famous example of an interesting phenomenon called the "ideomotor effect." I happen see another quasi-famous example in my current line of work from time to time. It's called "Facilitated Communication." With you background in psych, you should look it up. The various experiments on it are an excellent way to illustrate sound and unsound scientific methodology.

I don't need to look it up. I know about facilitated communication. Teacher mode. Chalk and a blackboard time. For those who don't know what EAllusion is referring to and don't want to take the time to google it, facilitated communication is a procedure where an individual who has been unable to communicate or for whom communication is extremely difficult, usually due to a condition of autism or cerebral palsy or some other limiting condition, works with a "facilitator" who uses a keyboard and supposedly lets the individual guide their hands to type out messages.

The question of course becomes one of who is actually initiating the messages which are typed, the facilitator or the individual. Most claims of facilitated communication are met with great skepticism. This does not mean the facilitator is consciously manufacturing a fake message. The theory is that it is done without consious effort. And the operation of a Ouija board can be explained the same way. The individuals who are "operating" the Ouija board think the planchette is moving on its own, when in reality the individuals are moving it without being aware they are doing it.

I certainly don't accept all instances, or even most instances of the Ouija board experiences as "real." But I think there are instances which are not explainable by ideomotor effects. Scientists, who pride themselvese on the skeptibility, should be a little skeptical that they can explain everything according to known scientific pricniples.

charity wrote:

the road to hana wrote:

charity wrote:

Sethbag wrote:Charity, you mentioned that you had possessed a Oija board before you converted to the LDS church at 19 years of age, and that you threw out the Ouija board upon your conversion.

I'm very curious about this. Did you believe, at that time, that the Ouija board actually allowed you to communicate with spirits (evil or otherwise)? Do you believe now that Ouija boards allow people to communicate with real spirits today (evil or otherwise)?

I believed at the time that there was some kind of communication with some real entity. Then I thought it might be a disembodied spirit. Now, I believe it was an unembodied spirit. And I think in some cases Ouija boards today allow people to communicate with these unembodied spirits.

So do you consider them good, benign or evil?

Evil. It is my opinion that these are unembodied spirits of the 1/3 who were cast out with Satan.

Then how can you be sure that seer stones aren't the same?

Charity,

Do you think that in some instances, not all, of facilitated communication, that the message being sent is from an evil spirit rather than the interpretor or the patient? If not, why not? Specifically, if you reject the possibility, are you claiming absolute scientific authority or absolute religious authority for yourself?

the road to hana wrote:
Then how can you be sure that seer stones aren't the same?

The recorded use of seerstones by prophets are for revealing God's word. When the reader has a confirmation of that word as God's word, it is clearly not from Satan.

Crystal balls are Satan's imitation.

Gadianton wrote:Do you think that in some instances, not all, of facilitated communication, that the message being sent is from an evil spirit rather than the interpretor or the patient?

No. I think it is either the facilitator or patient. In many cases, if not all, the facilitator. But those are such close calls, i would not like to be the one making the determination.

Gadianton wrote:If not, why not? Specifically, if you reject the possibility, are you claiming absolute scientific authority or absolute religious authority for yourself?

I don't claim either.