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Boaz made this comment on the Obama thread, and I felt it was worth exploring a little more:

Boaz wrote:Black men were not valiant in the pre-existence..

First of all, this was something I had never heard of until many years later when I read Brigham Young's comments concerning this in the Journal of Discourses.

I personally do not know of any members who believe this, and I have some very prominent members of the Church in my family.

For the "faithful few" here, have you ever believed this, and if/when you read about this, what were your thoughts?

Former members, I'm also interested in your view.

liz3564 wrote:Boaz made this comment on the Obama thread, and I felt it was worth exploring a little more:

Boaz wrote:Black men were not valiant in the pre-existence..

First of all, this was something I had never heard of until many years later when I read Brigham Young's comments concerning this in the Journal of Discourses.

I personally do not know of any members who believe this, and I have some very prominent members of the Church in my family.

For the "faithful few" here, have you ever believed this, and if/when you read about this, what were your thoughts?

Former members, I'm also interested in your view.

I was certainly taught that this is why black people were black.



"There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantage. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient, more or less, to the laws that were given us there. Those who were faithful in all things there received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less.... There were no neutrals in the war in heaven. All took sides either with Christ or with Satan. Every man had his agency there, and men receive rewards here based upon their actions there, just as they will receive rewards hereafter for deeds done in the body. The Negro, evidently, is receiving the reward he merits." -Joseph Fielding Smith Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.1, pages 66-67

liz3564 wrote:Boaz made this comment on the Obama thread, and I felt it was worth exploring a little more:

Boaz wrote:Black men were not valiant in the pre-existence..

First of all, this was something I had never heard of until many years later when I read Brigham Young's comments concerning this in the Journal of Discourses...

I personally do not know of any members who believe this

Liz,

It really doesn't matter whether either you or any TBM believes it or not. Brigham Young said it. According to history, it was the mind and will of the Lord.

You might ask the question instead, "is it true what Young said?". If God actually revealed that that blacks were fence sitters, what would we be talking about?

I believed at one time that Young was a prophet. I don't anymore. Now his opinion doesn't distract me from seeing all people from a less Arian perspective.

liz3564 wrote:Boaz made this comment on the Obama thread, and I felt it was worth exploring a little more:

Boaz wrote:Black men were not valiant in the pre-existence..

First of all, this was something I had never heard of until many years later when I read Brigham Young's comments concerning this in the Journal of Discourses.

I personally do not know of any members who believe this, and I have some very prominent members of the Church in my family.

For the "faithful few" here, have you ever believed this, and if/when you read about this, what were your thoughts?

Former members, I'm also interested in your view.

Former Member here:

I suppose as a very young child I did believe this. But at that point what I believed was what my parents, relatives, Sunday school teachers and virtually every other adult I trusted, told me to believe. Actually, I remember this being offered more as a possibility, rather than a settled matter. It was only later when I developed some critical thinking skills that I was able to recognize this belief as simple racism on the part of early Mormon leadership.

liz3564 wrote:Boaz made this comment on the Obama thread, and I felt it was worth exploring a little more:

Boaz wrote:Black men were not valiant in the pre-existence..

Also, I didn't think this just involved black men. The belief, necessarily would include black women too. And, following this logic, racial mixtures would involve, what? varying degrees of fence-sitting ---- its crazy.

RAJ wrote:

liz3564 wrote:Boaz made this comment on the Obama thread, and I felt it was worth exploring a little more:

Boaz wrote:Black men were not valiant in the pre-existence..

Also, I didn't think this just involved black men. The belief, necessarily would include women too.

Now, that is interesting. How so? Because women aren't allowed the priesthood? I had never heard this analogy before.

Yes, I learned that blacks were less valiant in the pre-existence. I was taught they were "fence-sitters" during the war in heaven and cursed with dark skin. Was I comfortable with that? No. But neither was I comfortable with polygamy, Bishop's interviews, licked cupcake lessons, polytheism or many other cultural or doctrinal aspects of Mormonism. I thought my discomfort was a symptom of my being sinful or prideful and unable to accept the Lord's will.

Once I learned that Mormonism was the fabrication of an adulterous charlatan, everything about it suddenly made sense. I was uncomfortable with many Mormon teachings because they were FALSE!

KA

liz3564 wrote:

RAJ wrote:

liz3564 wrote:Boaz made this comment on the Obama thread, and I felt it was worth exploring a little more:

Boaz wrote:Black men were not valiant in the pre-existence..

Also, I didn't think this just involved black men. The belief, necessarily would include women too.

Now, that is interesting. How so? Because women aren't allowed the priesthood? I had never heard this analogy before.

As Christopher mentioned, fence-sitting was an explanation for having a dark skin.

RAJ wrote:

liz3564 wrote:

RAJ wrote:

liz3564 wrote:Boaz made this comment on the Obama thread, and I felt it was worth exploring a little more:

Boaz wrote:Black men were not valiant in the pre-existence..

Also, I didn't think this just involved black men. The belief, necessarily would include women too.

Now, that is interesting. How so? Because women aren't allowed the priesthood? I had never heard this analogy before.

As Christopher mentioned, fence-sitting was an explanation for having a dark skin.

Edited to add: I meant to say BLACK women. I didn't mean all women.

No I never believed it, but I certainly heard this mentioned, proclaimed, taught etc., as the explanation for "black people:" they were cursed with darker skin because of their wishy-washy performance in the pre-existence/War in Heaven. The terms"fence sitters" and "less valiant" were also tossed around.